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you're locked into inception radio

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you're tuned in to night vision radio

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exposing the truth one secret at a time

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prepare yourself as we explore the

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shadow worlds of suppressed history

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secret knowledge forbidden religion and

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shine a light on the conspiracies to

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I mean

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welcome to night vision radio

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well the year was nineteen seventy-seven

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and it was a hot and sultry summer in

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Oklahoma sort of much like it's been

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this week in in California and in other

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states as I'm hearing from my friends

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across the country but that night I was

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embarking on a big adventure one of the

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biggest adventures of my life as I left

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my hometown of Tulsa Oklahoma to head

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for Los Angeles to parts unknown to I

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didn't know what my future was going to

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hold but I just knew that I wanted to I

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wanted to be on the west coast so I

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headed out in my 10 year old station

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wagon and as I got out in the middle of

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nowhere that night across the car radio

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came a news story that shook me to the

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core it was they announced that there

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had been a triple homicide three little

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girl scouts were found murdered at girls

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camp a Girl Scout camp following the

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first night of their encampment there of

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course it was i was horrified as I you

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know drove along through the night

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listening to them as they would repeat

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this story every time the news would

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come back on and then when I got to

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California I kept on top of the story

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through my family my mother and my

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sister in fact my sister was the one who

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mainly kept me apprised of the details

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and it just so happens that tonight is

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my big sister's birthday and I know

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she's going to listen to this show so I

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want to say happy birthday to her and

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thank you for keeping me on top of the

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updates of this most notorious murder

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case in Oklahoma history as far as I'm

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concerned and I think my two guests

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might agree tonight I have with me too

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OSBI agents one is still with the OSBI

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his name is Harvey Pratt you might also

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recognize him through his artwork that

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you may have seen on the internet and on

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my facebook page i posted some of it

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it's a Native American Heart work he's

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giant arapahoe and sue I find out it's

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with us joining us tonight

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and he was on the case that still sparks

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so much controversy in Oklahoma you

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can't bring it up without somebody

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getting hot under the collar either

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coming down on one side or the other

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also joining us tonight is Arthur

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Linville who was the CIA investing see

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CSI investigator I should say not CIA I

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don't want to put you in another agency

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Arthur CSI investigator the crime scene

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investigator who arrived on the scene to

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examine all the evidence and to

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memorialize it for processing later now

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Harvey and Arthur thanks so much for

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joining me tonight I really appreciate

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you coming on board you bet and also now

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we were supposed to as you two guys know

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we were supposed to have Mike Wilkerson

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with us and Mike in his brother I mean

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dick Wilkerson and Mike dick and his

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brother Mike were also agents on the

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case dick was actually the chief

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investigator on that case who sort of

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pulled together the team on the Girl

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Scout murder case and he and his brother

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Mike after the murders wrote a book

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called someone cry for the children

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about the murders now that book is

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really rare now and I tried to look it

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up and I see in some places they're

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getting three hundred dollars for a copy

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of that book but the good news is a dick

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told me today that they're going to

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republish the book so I'm hoping that

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they do that sooner rather than later

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they're going to add a few details and a

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little bit of follow-on about how the

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case winds up today but you guys if

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you'll just indulge me for a minute I

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just I'll just share a little bit about

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how the case came about and then when it

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comes to the part when the investigators

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arrived i'm going to rely on you guys

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for all the details but what had

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happened this was the first night of

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girl scout camp and the girls were all

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picked up in school buses in tulsa and

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driven to grand lake and to an

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encampment the Girl Scout camp called

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Camp Scott at the time it was the first

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night of the encampment

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when they arrived they were all allowed

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to choose their own tent mates there

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were tents set up and they were all on

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platforms so the head floors or little

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foundations in tents on top and all the

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girls shows their friends who of course

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they would choose to be their tent mates

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and when all the choosing up was done

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there were three little girls that were

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left over those three girls who did not

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know each other before this night we're

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going to be tent mates they were placed

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in tent number eight which there were

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only eight tenths in this particular

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encampment it was called Kiowa camp

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after the Kiowa Indian tribe and they

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were intent number eight which was the

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farthest out and the closest to the edge

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of the woods the next morning well I

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guess during the night there was some

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odd sounds heard one of the counselors

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got up and she saw a dim light moving

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through the woods but when she shined

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her flashlight on it it would keep go

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out and then she began to hear some

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strange guttural groan xand grunts and

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strange animal-like sounds through the

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night that she kept trying to identify

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she couldn't until she finally she said

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they just became a part of her sleep

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they went on and on and on the next

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morning I believe it was that same

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counselor who got up and out on the

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trail which was called cookie trail

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there was found us there was a sleeping

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bag laying out in the middle of the

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trail and so of course she's thinking

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what are these girls up to somebody left

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their sleeping bag out here on the road

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but went on closer inspection she

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realized that the sleeping bag was not

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empty at some point they started

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rounding up the girls and discovered

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that there were two other girls that

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were not in the right places or one of

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them I guess was in the tent but there

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were three little dead girls who had

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been brutally sexually assaulted and

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murdered and so began the biggest

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manhunt I guess in Oklahoma history and

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the case opened and the Oklahoma State

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Bureau of

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negation because of the complexity of

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the case because of the high-profile

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nature of the case in the heinous nature

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of the case and the fact that it

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involved three little girls the OSBI was

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called in I also would like to

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acknowledge the look the families of the

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little girls tonight because having lost

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a child myself ten years ago not to

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murder thank God but having lost a child

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I realized that they missed those little

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girls still to this day every single day

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so I want to give extreme reverence to

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their feelings those families and also

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to the Cherokee community because in

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Oklahoma you know we're proud of our

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native american heritage you know as I

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was telling one of the guys earlier you

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know that it seems like you know

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everyone I knew growing up was either

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Indian part Indian married to an Indian

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or claiming to be an Indian so it's

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something that we hold dear in Oklahoma

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not as dearly as we should I might say

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but certainly it's something that I have

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a great deal of respect for so because

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this story contains Native American

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elements on both sides of the law I want

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to say that you know we want to maintain

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our respect for the tribal people so

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we'll start from there now Arthur you

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got the call that morning right after

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the girls were found I would imagine I'm

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not sure when they were found they were

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found as I understand it whether we

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found by people to camp obviously the

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first law enforcement on the scene I

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believe was a highway patrol trooper and

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then followed by possibly Pete Weaver

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and or share a deputy sheriff so Pete

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Weaver was the sheriff of mayes county

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where the murder took place that's right

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okay but I got to call that morning at

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seven forty-five am I notes reflect and

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i happen to be a pilot as was a dick and

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we did not have an aircraft at that time

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later did but not at that time and so

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he announced to me that the three Girl

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Scouts had been murdered and asked if I

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could get my hands on an airplane which

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I could and did in flew from chickasha

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where I live too well used to be an

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error experience way airpark strip which

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is no longer in existence and there I

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picked up crime scene technicians and by

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the way I'm not a crime crime scene

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technician I was always an investigative

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agent but mainly because I was a pilot I

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flew paul s qin aldo and Larry Mullins

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to prior where we were picked up I

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believed by OHP trooper Newton as I

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recall and driven to the crime scene and

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what I did simply was to oversee the

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collection of the evidence at the crime

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scene the body had already been removed

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I see and Harvey did you arrive that

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same morning no I did not uh I actually

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was involved in special projects and was

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about a resident agent or around a field

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inch and I was involved in special

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special operations and so was not called

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in for her about a week before I would

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actually ask you to come in hmm well I

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know that shortly after these murders

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there was a cave located nearby where

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there's some evidence that was directly

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linked to the crime scene Arthur could

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you tell us what was found in the cave

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well there were squirrel hunters and it

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was more there were two caves involved

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in the case and I think Harvey knows

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more about the other one than I do but

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the one that he and I have discussed it

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was more like a cellar area and it was a

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very remote location and our

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understanding is that it was a childhood

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haunt if you will of heart but anyway we

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confident the squirrel hunters had found

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this and we accompanied I believe still

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trooper Newton if i'm not mistaken to

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the top of the cave and as memory serves

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me and again i'm going to qualify I'll

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qualify it once all this subject of my

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memory it's been a long long time ago

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but I know for sure we found a roll of

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masking tape and it was as I recall

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vividly it was an odd width it's not a

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standard three quarter or one inch width

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but anyway later it was matched but torn

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edge of that roll of masking tape at the

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cave site were heart used to frequent as

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a kid it was it matched microscopically

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to the torn edge of the masking tape

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used on the flashlight that was you

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found at the crime scene and the masking

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tape on the flashlight was holding a

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plastic cover not unlike trash bag green

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as remember little hole in it we

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understand heart was a knife blind but

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so that tied without doubt the cave with

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the murder scene also I found a

272
00:13:47,610 --> 00:13:44,830
newspaper that had been used by someone

273
00:13:50,940 --> 00:13:47,620
as tissue paper toilet paper if you will

274
00:13:53,940 --> 00:13:50,950
in the field and i ran across the date

275
00:13:56,310 --> 00:13:53,950
on that I think it's April 217 it's a

276
00:13:59,760 --> 00:13:56,320
Tulsa newspaper and that became relevant

277
00:14:03,270 --> 00:13:59,770
later because the play flight which I

278
00:14:09,270 --> 00:14:03,280
just referred was is one of these square

279
00:14:12,030 --> 00:14:09,280
batteries and inside and it was it had a

280
00:14:15,510 --> 00:14:12,040
loose connection and someone had wadded

281
00:14:17,910 --> 00:14:15,520
up newspaper and put it in the back of

282
00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:17,920
it to force the battery to the contact

283
00:14:23,699 --> 00:14:20,290
to get a good contact well long story

284
00:14:25,980 --> 00:14:23,709
short we later determined in fact I

285
00:14:30,030 --> 00:14:25,990
remember reading this April the 17th

286
00:14:32,010 --> 00:14:30,040
date on this Tulsa newspaper and so I

287
00:14:34,569 --> 00:14:32,020
remember speaking to someone at the Home

288
00:14:37,389 --> 00:14:34,579
Office once I got back to

289
00:14:39,689 --> 00:14:37,399
trailer and I think it was Dick it might

290
00:14:43,299 --> 00:14:39,699
have been someone else but I asked them

291
00:14:46,259 --> 00:14:43,309
the date of the newspaper that they had

292
00:14:49,989 --> 00:14:46,269
removed and we're processing for prints

293
00:14:53,079 --> 00:14:49,999
that was found inside the flashlight and

294
00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:53,089
it was able to 17th it's the exact same

295
00:15:00,220 --> 00:14:56,480
newspaper whether we so again that too

296
00:15:03,369 --> 00:15:00,230
tied at the scene and Harvey you may

297
00:15:07,689 --> 00:15:03,379
recall may not I believe we found a pair

298
00:15:09,970 --> 00:15:07,699
of glasses there in fact on reading some

299
00:15:14,859 --> 00:15:09,980
of my personal noticeably we found a

300
00:15:19,119 --> 00:15:14,869
pair of eyeglasses there as well but

301
00:15:22,479 --> 00:15:19,129
definitely the newspaper with and in the

302
00:15:26,949 --> 00:15:22,489
masking tape roll will yet and and there

303
00:15:29,710 --> 00:15:26,959
was a photograph there yeah he came well

304
00:15:33,789 --> 00:15:29,720
there was and there's where my memory

305
00:15:39,369 --> 00:15:33,799
fades I don't recall whether the trooper

306
00:15:42,129 --> 00:15:39,379
or someone prior to me found that I

307
00:15:44,319 --> 00:15:42,139
ended up with it because what I'm doing

308
00:15:46,329 --> 00:15:44,329
is flying back and forth I my notes

309
00:15:47,739 --> 00:15:46,339
reflect that I flew to oklahoma city

310
00:15:49,449 --> 00:15:47,749
picked up mullins an excellent although

311
00:15:51,159 --> 00:15:49,459
and then flew to prior and then went

312
00:15:53,699 --> 00:15:51,169
back to oklahoma city and i'm flying

313
00:15:57,929 --> 00:15:53,709
back and forth constantly with evidence

314
00:16:02,499 --> 00:15:57,939
but whether i actually found the

315
00:16:05,859 --> 00:16:02,509
photographs i don't recall now the

316
00:16:09,309 --> 00:16:05,869
photograph was was the photograph of a

317
00:16:13,479 --> 00:16:09,319
wedding and I know that you were trying

318
00:16:15,909 --> 00:16:13,489
to figure out who those people were

319
00:16:18,729 --> 00:16:15,919
because you were trying because the

320
00:16:21,819 --> 00:16:18,739
evidence in the cave linked directly to

321
00:16:26,859 --> 00:16:21,829
the crime scene but you needed to know

322
00:16:29,619 --> 00:16:26,869
who the cave was linked to and so what

323
00:16:31,590 --> 00:16:29,629
ended up happening was that picture was

324
00:16:34,829 --> 00:16:31,600
published in the Tulsa World newspaper

325
00:16:40,389 --> 00:16:34,839
asking the public for assistance and

326
00:16:42,789 --> 00:16:40,399
saying you know what you know just if

327
00:16:45,669 --> 00:16:42,799
anyone knows these people and this is

328
00:16:48,249 --> 00:16:45,679
where I want to ask Harvey so when you

329
00:16:52,239 --> 00:16:48,259
guys were out in them in the mobile

330
00:16:54,909 --> 00:16:52,249
unit I know the guys at one point looked

331
00:16:57,999 --> 00:16:54,919
up and you had walked down to the water

332
00:17:01,859 --> 00:16:58,009
can you tell me about that story do you

333
00:17:06,220 --> 00:17:01,869
know what which one I'm talking about oh

334
00:17:09,159 --> 00:17:06,230
let me put and say that when they

335
00:17:12,509 --> 00:17:09,169
finally asked me to come become involved

336
00:17:16,360 --> 00:17:12,519
in investigation they asked me to

337
00:17:21,730 --> 00:17:16,370
transport photographs of Jeanne Moreau

338
00:17:23,919 --> 00:17:21,740
hard as a possible suspect and so I was

339
00:17:31,330 --> 00:17:23,929
in my car and drove from Oklahoma City

340
00:17:34,419 --> 00:17:31,340
to focus Grove area and I had I remember

341
00:17:38,799 --> 00:17:34,429
thinking I know I hope this is not an

342
00:17:40,539 --> 00:17:38,809
Indian who has killed his children that

343
00:17:43,090 --> 00:17:40,549
was my first thoughts I just I just

344
00:17:45,129 --> 00:17:43,100
didn't want it to be an Indian to be

345
00:17:48,879 --> 00:17:45,139
involved in and killing these children

346
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:48,889
so we we got there and when I got there

347
00:17:55,389 --> 00:17:52,610
I was stopped at the gate by Sid wise

348
00:17:57,759 --> 00:17:55,399
and and should told me because I was I

349
00:18:00,879 --> 00:17:57,769
was a actually I was working undercover

350
00:18:05,430 --> 00:18:00,889
into some other other investigations and

351
00:18:08,230 --> 00:18:05,440
I was driving an unmarked car and and I

352
00:18:10,149 --> 00:18:08,240
didn't look like a OSBI agent like the

353
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:10,159
other guys look pop out I had long hair

354
00:18:15,909 --> 00:18:13,850
and and Sid stopped me and told me that

355
00:18:17,529 --> 00:18:15,919
I wasn't RAB down during I just said

356
00:18:19,990 --> 00:18:17,539
well thank you and I just going on and

357
00:18:21,580 --> 00:18:20,000
he chased me down into the camp all the

358
00:18:25,389 --> 00:18:21,590
way the camp but when I got out of the

359
00:18:28,869 --> 00:18:25,399
car the workers and others were standing

360
00:18:31,980 --> 00:18:28,879
there and they they saw him to get out

361
00:18:35,619 --> 00:18:31,990
of the car and they were faced started

362
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:35,629
teasing me you know and Sid jumped out

363
00:18:41,919 --> 00:18:39,370
was chasing the end and so they face

364
00:18:45,340 --> 00:18:41,929
they had to cool him down and tell him

365
00:18:48,610 --> 00:18:45,350
that I was in a whiskey agent and I can

366
00:18:51,909 --> 00:18:48,620
I gave into pictures so that was my

367
00:18:53,470 --> 00:18:51,919
initial contact with with the area and I

368
00:18:58,419 --> 00:18:53,480
noticed that it was there was a lot of

369
00:19:01,060 --> 00:18:58,429
heavy growth there at the camp and there

370
00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:01,070
were trails but

371
00:19:06,639 --> 00:19:04,130
it misses if when I failed it was

372
00:19:08,830 --> 00:19:06,649
extremely dark there because there was

373
00:19:11,980 --> 00:19:08,840
no life out there and people don't

374
00:19:14,289 --> 00:19:11,990
realize because they live in towns that

375
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:14,299
there's a lot of light pollution but

376
00:19:20,740 --> 00:19:16,850
when you get out in the country like

377
00:19:22,990 --> 00:19:20,750
that where there are hardly any life at

378
00:19:25,810 --> 00:19:23,000
all and all you see is the stars in the

379
00:19:27,789 --> 00:19:25,820
heaven you see all you can see the milky

380
00:19:31,289 --> 00:19:27,799
way in all the constellations and and

381
00:19:33,759 --> 00:19:31,299
people just don't see that anymore and

382
00:19:39,190 --> 00:19:33,769
Bingley really dark and not being able

383
00:19:42,180 --> 00:19:39,200
to even see in that wooded area off the

384
00:19:46,869 --> 00:19:42,190
trails you couldn't hardly see anything

385
00:19:50,259 --> 00:19:46,879
it was a people just don't understand

386
00:19:54,399 --> 00:19:50,269
the circumstances of being out there at

387
00:19:58,629 --> 00:19:54,409
night so you almost have to be familiar

388
00:20:01,330 --> 00:19:58,639
with where you are if you are stranger

389
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:01,340
you're lost and the drift stranger you

390
00:20:07,690 --> 00:20:05,450
have no idea where you're going and and

391
00:20:09,009 --> 00:20:07,700
by that time we had we had several

392
00:20:10,899 --> 00:20:09,019
options in there they were doing

393
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:10,909
searches of the area we were looking for

394
00:20:16,269 --> 00:20:13,490
for anything that we could find where

395
00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:16,279
they had and often talked about about

396
00:20:20,710 --> 00:20:18,320
the dogs and and some of the things that

397
00:20:25,299 --> 00:20:20,720
we we were searching the areas and they

398
00:20:27,159 --> 00:20:25,309
were cliffs and that we had to climb up

399
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:27,169
into the caves into the end of these

400
00:20:32,139 --> 00:20:29,450
clips and and the search the cliffs out

401
00:20:36,490 --> 00:20:32,149
and they were full thence cliffs and

402
00:20:39,039 --> 00:20:36,500
locks were full of buzzards and and you

403
00:20:41,619 --> 00:20:39,049
would crawl up these ledges and it would

404
00:20:44,860 --> 00:20:41,629
be would be a half a dozen measures in

405
00:20:47,350 --> 00:20:44,870
there and they would come out and they

406
00:20:48,909 --> 00:20:47,360
were just nasty and and crawl up through

407
00:20:50,499 --> 00:20:48,919
the rocks and all of a sudden the

408
00:20:52,330 --> 00:20:50,509
Buzzard would come out of the rocks it

409
00:20:54,789 --> 00:20:52,340
was there was a lot of a lot of things

410
00:20:59,259 --> 00:20:54,799
that people weren't not familiar with

411
00:21:01,570 --> 00:20:59,269
doing so what I discovered that and the

412
00:21:04,990 --> 00:21:01,580
focus was on Native American and we

413
00:21:07,869 --> 00:21:05,000
started hearing stories from the local

414
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:07,879
populace about Native American legends

415
00:21:13,940 --> 00:21:11,210
and natham air connect people and what

416
00:21:16,549 --> 00:21:13,950
they were doing and and Deborah

417
00:21:21,700 --> 00:21:16,559
the officers were talking about comments

418
00:21:29,289 --> 00:21:21,710
that were made by one of the suspects

419
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:29,299
gene Leroy heart I became very nervous

420
00:21:39,350 --> 00:21:36,090
about about being confronted by a Native

421
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:39,360
American who was using Native American

422
00:21:47,629 --> 00:21:45,090
culture in a way and and I'm uh I come

423
00:21:51,620 --> 00:21:47,639
from very traditional family I found

424
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:51,630
these very traditional people and echo

425
00:21:56,990 --> 00:21:53,850
that go way back and I've always been

426
00:22:00,320 --> 00:21:57,000
involved in listen to stories of

427
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:00,330
medicine and what people were capable of

428
00:22:06,950 --> 00:22:05,250
doing and so I I was concerned about my

429
00:22:09,980 --> 00:22:06,960
safety and the guys that I was working

430
00:22:13,159 --> 00:22:09,990
with so that particular night I went to

431
00:22:15,379 --> 00:22:13,169
the one of cedar trees out there and and

432
00:22:18,830 --> 00:22:15,389
I went around the cedar tree and I

433
00:22:24,289 --> 00:22:18,840
picked the cedar from the full size of a

434
00:22:27,259 --> 00:22:24,299
tree and was going to go smoke myself so

435
00:22:31,220 --> 00:22:27,269
that smoke myself off so that having be

436
00:22:33,860 --> 00:22:31,230
a kind of fans myself and purify myself

437
00:22:35,659 --> 00:22:33,870
game down and and when you say smoke

438
00:22:41,509 --> 00:22:35,669
yourself a lot of people are familiar

439
00:22:44,629 --> 00:22:41,519
out here with the term smudging in in

440
00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:44,639
back you know where we're from the

441
00:22:50,930 --> 00:22:47,130
native people you know call it smoke em

442
00:22:52,009 --> 00:22:50,940
on the smoke myself and so that's what

443
00:22:53,450 --> 00:22:52,019
you're referring to I just want to make

444
00:22:56,450 --> 00:22:53,460
that clear to anybody who might not know

445
00:22:58,490 --> 00:22:56,460
that practice what but yes so you have

446
00:23:01,580 --> 00:22:58,500
to understand it there are 39 tribes in

447
00:23:04,220 --> 00:23:01,590
Oklahoma yes there are 39 cards and and

448
00:23:06,740 --> 00:23:04,230
all these tribes have their own personal

449
00:23:12,460 --> 00:23:06,750
beliefs their personal things that they

450
00:23:18,259 --> 00:23:12,470
do and I come from the Plains tribes and

451
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:18,269
I'm from China Rocco and Sue and I'm a

452
00:23:25,129 --> 00:23:22,970
I'm a a mate French and I make English

453
00:23:27,350 --> 00:23:25,139
actually I'm an eight on the sixteenth

454
00:23:31,070 --> 00:23:27,360
French in the 16th Spanish

455
00:23:33,260 --> 00:23:31,080
that's interesting that and the and the

456
00:23:35,660 --> 00:23:33,270
rest of the eye on my brother is a

457
00:23:40,460 --> 00:23:35,670
business is Sioux and Cheyenne my father

458
00:23:43,700 --> 00:23:40,470
was a rapaho triannon and so we have our

459
00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:43,710
own customs as all of these tribes do

460
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:49,200
and so I I was going to go build a

461
00:23:53,419 --> 00:23:51,210
little fire and smoke myself off and I

462
00:23:55,610 --> 00:23:53,429
had some things that but I that I

463
00:23:59,390 --> 00:23:55,620
normally carry with me for for those

464
00:24:01,370 --> 00:23:59,400
reasons Oh being trying to follow

465
00:24:03,980 --> 00:24:01,380
traditional ways and especially when I'm

466
00:24:10,070 --> 00:24:03,990
involved with Native Americans I I try

467
00:24:12,740 --> 00:24:10,080
to to focus on those things that will

468
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:12,750
not only protect and guide me and make

469
00:24:18,799 --> 00:24:16,650
me a better person and so that's what I

470
00:24:22,789 --> 00:24:18,809
was doing that since some of my some of

471
00:24:24,620 --> 00:24:22,799
my local my double agents coffees and

472
00:24:26,090 --> 00:24:24,630
they said what are you doing and they

473
00:24:27,860 --> 00:24:26,100
could work what are you doing and I said

474
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:27,870
well I'm going to smoke myself tonight

475
00:24:35,690 --> 00:24:32,690
I've been ridiculed in my lifetime from

476
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:35,700
non-indians about using think that we do

477
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:38,370
and so I was very cautious and I under

478
00:24:44,980 --> 00:24:41,850
cautious about what I say about certain

479
00:24:48,919 --> 00:24:44,990
things in about traditional things and

480
00:24:51,710 --> 00:24:48,929
because I I don't want to be confronted

481
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:51,720
and be ridiculed and and and i refuse

482
00:24:56,409 --> 00:24:53,970
you to convene all saying because i've

483
00:24:59,810 --> 00:24:56,419
had those in casting on my entire life

484
00:25:01,580 --> 00:24:59,820
so and ida what these guys confronted me

485
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:01,590
and one of the melon icing well can we

486
00:25:05,870 --> 00:25:03,210
be part of this can you do these for us

487
00:25:08,210 --> 00:25:05,880
so why i smoked them up i have blessed

488
00:25:11,330 --> 00:25:08,220
them all you know that we would we would

489
00:25:14,090 --> 00:25:11,340
we would have a clarity and we would be

490
00:25:16,460 --> 00:25:14,100
honest and we would be truthful about

491
00:25:19,039 --> 00:25:16,470
what we were going to do it and seek the

492
00:25:22,909 --> 00:25:19,049
truth and and that's what we did and

493
00:25:25,940 --> 00:25:22,919
then i also by that time I had received

494
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:25,950
some medicine for my from a medicine man

495
00:25:30,950 --> 00:25:28,890
that my mother sent me to and he had

496
00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:30,960
given me some medicine and said this

497
00:25:37,220 --> 00:25:33,510
will this will help you seek the truth

498
00:25:39,590 --> 00:25:37,230
and and it will it will find somebody to

499
00:25:40,940 --> 00:25:39,600
help you and so I put that in the end of

500
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:40,950
the fire that night

501
00:25:46,470 --> 00:25:43,570
part of that medicine in the fire I said

502
00:25:47,850 --> 00:25:46,480
this is the smoke will go up into the

503
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:47,860
into the heavens and it will touch

504
00:25:52,019 --> 00:25:49,450
somebody and they will come to us and

505
00:25:53,519 --> 00:25:52,029
that's when the photographs 15 minutes

506
00:25:57,659 --> 00:25:53,529
later the photographs were identified

507
00:26:01,350 --> 00:25:57,669
the phone rang at your mobile camp there

508
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:01,360
and it was either the guy or someone

509
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:04,330
telling you that the photograph had been

510
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:06,730
I been identified by a photographer who

511
00:26:12,409 --> 00:26:10,330
had taken those wedding photos and it so

512
00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:12,419
happened that that same photographer

513
00:26:19,250 --> 00:26:16,510
taught a class at Macalester state

514
00:26:23,490 --> 00:26:19,260
prison the big prison in Oklahoma and

515
00:26:26,220 --> 00:26:23,500
one of the inmates had actually

516
00:26:29,610 --> 00:26:26,230
developed those photographs and that

517
00:26:34,350 --> 00:26:29,620
inmate was identified as gene Leroy

518
00:26:38,539 --> 00:26:34,360
heart who then became the suspect in

519
00:26:41,820 --> 00:26:38,549
this case and Jean Hart at this time was

520
00:26:46,110 --> 00:26:41,830
aside from being you know a local

521
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:46,120
football hero was a convicted felon he

522
00:26:53,580 --> 00:26:48,250
was in prison doing a couple hundred

523
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:53,590
years or something for a kidnapping rape

524
00:27:00,120 --> 00:26:56,890
and I don't know but definitely

525
00:27:04,889 --> 00:27:00,130
kidnapping and rape and because he had

526
00:27:08,490 --> 00:27:04,899
earlier kidnapped two teenage young

527
00:27:11,820 --> 00:27:08,500
pregnant women in tulsa and taken them

528
00:27:16,260 --> 00:27:11,830
out to the woods where he tried to bury

529
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:16,270
him tied them up raped and sodomized

530
00:27:23,190 --> 00:27:21,250
them and then left them there and was

531
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:23,200
going to come back and they managed

532
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:25,090
somehow to escape and he was convicted

533
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:28,330
on that sent to Macalester where he was

534
00:27:33,389 --> 00:27:30,730
incarcerated for a time and then he

535
00:27:35,430 --> 00:27:33,399
escaped and that was his status at the

536
00:27:39,210 --> 00:27:35,440
time of these murderers was he was an

537
00:27:42,060 --> 00:27:39,220
escaped convict and he was from that

538
00:27:44,310 --> 00:27:42,070
general area grew up in that general

539
00:27:46,980 --> 00:27:44,320
area he was Cherokee Indian and his

540
00:27:50,930 --> 00:27:46,990
mother a lady by the name of LM a

541
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:50,940
buckskin lived very near to camp Scott

542
00:27:54,300 --> 00:27:53,770
yes they lived in the next section

543
00:27:57,060 --> 00:27:54,310
probably

544
00:28:00,120 --> 00:27:57,070
a half a mile away that's right and

545
00:28:05,220 --> 00:28:00,130
Renee to embellish a little bit or

546
00:28:06,630 --> 00:28:05,230
expand upon the photographs I want to

547
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:06,640
say something to the effect that there

548
00:28:14,930 --> 00:28:10,530
were hundreds of suspects we had more

549
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:14,940
child molesters with people with

550
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:20,290
convictions of child molestation in that

551
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:23,050
area within a 30-mile radius I think

552
00:28:26,820 --> 00:28:24,610
than i've ever seen and i'm not

553
00:28:28,410 --> 00:28:26,830
disparaging the community is just that

554
00:28:31,350 --> 00:28:28,420
it was more prevalent than i would have

555
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:31,360
dreamed at a time my point being is that

556
00:28:37,290 --> 00:28:34,210
i'm not sure how it was given to me but

557
00:28:39,420 --> 00:28:37,300
either wilkerson or someone i was

558
00:28:42,930 --> 00:28:39,430
assigned to the heart lead and they said

559
00:28:45,180 --> 00:28:42,940
all it was and back to what Harvey was

560
00:28:47,790 --> 00:28:45,190
referring to on the photographs and what

561
00:28:51,030 --> 00:28:47,800
how you'd characterize Renee the

562
00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:51,040
situation at the prison he was an inmate

563
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:53,200
heart was an inmate it granted at the

564
00:29:00,240 --> 00:28:57,130
time all granite yes and when he yeah

565
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:00,250
and when these photographs came into

566
00:29:06,150 --> 00:29:04,090
existence again from the cave site they

567
00:29:09,540 --> 00:29:06,160
were it was a photograph for the

568
00:29:11,970 --> 00:29:09,550
listening audience of a wedding

569
00:29:14,490 --> 00:29:11,980
reception in retrospect we found that to

570
00:29:16,980 --> 00:29:14,500
be the case it was the ladies were

571
00:29:19,350 --> 00:29:16,990
dressed very well and there's a girl

572
00:29:22,230 --> 00:29:19,360
sitting at a piano playing and another

573
00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:22,240
one standing apparently about to sing

574
00:29:27,780 --> 00:29:24,910
and then it was a third photograph and I

575
00:29:30,630 --> 00:29:27,790
believe at that time that it bore that

576
00:29:33,510 --> 00:29:30,640
woman bought a remarkable resemblance to

577
00:29:36,810 --> 00:29:33,520
a photograph that also had of Hearts

578
00:29:40,950 --> 00:29:36,820
ex-wife and I invited and I interviewed

579
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:40,960
her later extensively but and I was

580
00:29:46,770 --> 00:29:44,290
certainly not the one who had developed

581
00:29:49,230 --> 00:29:46,780
the lead at granite but when these

582
00:29:51,300 --> 00:29:49,240
photographs were released the public as

583
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:51,310
you had correctly pointed out we got a

584
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:54,130
call from the participants of that

585
00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:56,170
wedding in fact maybe the right for all

586
00:30:02,480 --> 00:29:57,970
I know or maybe the lady that was in the

587
00:30:05,220 --> 00:30:02,490
picture see ya and so what happened uh

588
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:05,230
and I do believe I interviewed her

589
00:30:09,659 --> 00:30:07,690
because we we determined

590
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:09,669
and party man i'm not sure but we

591
00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:12,610
determined that there were that that

592
00:30:19,289 --> 00:30:16,080
this family for these photographs that

593
00:30:21,749 --> 00:30:19,299
founded the crime scene or at the case

594
00:30:26,009 --> 00:30:21,759
aight connected to the crime scene with

595
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:26,019
the paper and the tape the newspaper and

596
00:30:33,330 --> 00:30:30,370
the tape they had retained or hired

597
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:33,340
their photographer for the wedding was a

598
00:30:39,119 --> 00:30:36,250
man who I remember as I remember it was

599
00:30:41,190 --> 00:30:39,129
a full-time photographers and would

600
00:30:43,259 --> 00:30:41,200
shoot mug shots in this and that of the

601
00:30:47,820 --> 00:30:43,269
inmates that were being processed in

602
00:30:53,759 --> 00:30:47,830
into at granted now and he moonlighted

603
00:30:55,919 --> 00:30:53,769
as a wedding photographer with so but

604
00:30:58,919 --> 00:30:55,929
they pointed out in were adamant in the

605
00:31:02,759 --> 00:30:58,929
entire time the family that they had two

606
00:31:06,419 --> 00:31:02,769
copies of the photographs and the

607
00:31:09,090 --> 00:31:06,429
negative and so and they had never

608
00:31:11,940 --> 00:31:09,100
disseminated copies of those photographs

609
00:31:13,769 --> 00:31:11,950
anywhere else and as it turned out

610
00:31:15,659 --> 00:31:13,779
through good investigative effort and

611
00:31:20,490 --> 00:31:15,669
I'm again I I wish I knew who do

612
00:31:24,899 --> 00:31:20,500
attribute this to it was not me but the

613
00:31:27,869 --> 00:31:24,909
bureau we learned that heart was the

614
00:31:30,869 --> 00:31:27,879
photographer's assistant he worked in

615
00:31:34,019 --> 00:31:30,879
the dark room at granite which gave him

616
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:34,029
ready access obviously to these

617
00:31:38,789 --> 00:31:36,250
negatives so because I don't doubt that

618
00:31:42,419 --> 00:31:38,799
the photographer's soup them out there

619
00:31:46,230 --> 00:31:42,429
if they had a dark room and I've always

620
00:31:48,509 --> 00:31:46,240
believed that his reason for carrying

621
00:31:53,549 --> 00:31:48,519
these photographs and again when he was

622
00:31:56,669 --> 00:31:53,559
booked into jail and I think what a good

623
00:31:58,139 --> 00:31:56,679
close friend of his it was common

624
00:32:00,090 --> 00:31:58,149
knowledge that he had these photographs

625
00:32:04,590 --> 00:32:00,100
in his billfold when we carried him

626
00:32:07,590 --> 00:32:04,600
constantly and I I am of the belief that

627
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:07,600
he did so by virtue of the remarkable

628
00:32:12,539 --> 00:32:10,090
resemblance what I believed at least be

629
00:32:14,430 --> 00:32:12,549
the remarkable resemblance to one of the

630
00:32:18,659 --> 00:32:14,440
ladies in the photograph to his ex-wife

631
00:32:21,010 --> 00:32:18,669
yes yes I remember that but this

632
00:32:25,270 --> 00:32:21,020
actually the identification

633
00:32:29,380 --> 00:32:25,280
shin of that suspect actually came just

634
00:32:34,530 --> 00:32:29,390
moments after the smoking down by the

635
00:32:37,780 --> 00:32:34,540
water and that was what was so amazing

636
00:32:39,850 --> 00:32:37,790
Harvey you sent the smoke out and said

637
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:39,860
it's gonna it's going to fall on someone

638
00:32:45,610 --> 00:32:43,250
who's going to help us a few minutes

639
00:32:49,630 --> 00:32:45,620
later the phone rings you've got your ID

640
00:32:51,970 --> 00:32:49,640
you know or the beginning of identifying

641
00:32:53,290 --> 00:32:51,980
the suspect you know it's we're a little

642
00:32:55,780 --> 00:32:53,300
bit late but we're going to take a quick

643
00:32:59,080 --> 00:32:55,790
break and we'll be back in just a few

644
00:33:02,920 --> 00:32:59,090
minutes with more of the Oklahoma Girl

645
00:33:05,110 --> 00:33:02,930
Scout murders and all the mystery and

646
00:33:07,780 --> 00:33:05,120
magic that went with it we'll be right

647
00:33:09,940 --> 00:33:07,790
back you're listening the night vision

648
00:33:13,060 --> 00:33:09,950
radio I'm your host Renee Barnett if

649
00:33:18,460 --> 00:33:13,070
you're just tuning in we are talking

650
00:33:21,910 --> 00:33:18,470
with agents from the OSBI both current

651
00:33:24,250 --> 00:33:21,920
and former who were who worked on the

652
00:33:27,430 --> 00:33:24,260
notorious Oklahoma Girl Scout murder

653
00:33:32,500 --> 00:33:27,440
case that occurred in the summer in June

654
00:33:35,470 --> 00:33:32,510
of 1977 it became you know full of

655
00:33:41,170 --> 00:33:35,480
controversy and all kinds of an unusual

656
00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:41,180
twists and turns part of it due to some

657
00:33:46,750 --> 00:33:43,310
of the Native American culture that was

658
00:33:49,290 --> 00:33:46,760
brought into the investigation are

659
00:33:52,060 --> 00:33:49,300
brought into the case by the suspect and

660
00:33:56,260 --> 00:33:52,070
also later by the agents themselves as

661
00:33:59,560 --> 00:33:56,270
we just heard from Harvey Pratt he sort

662
00:34:03,220 --> 00:33:59,570
of was always living in a traditional

663
00:34:05,620 --> 00:34:03,230
Indian family and so was used to

664
00:34:09,490 --> 00:34:05,630
practicing some of the what called the

665
00:34:11,470 --> 00:34:09,500
ways or the old ways and was found by

666
00:34:14,169 --> 00:34:11,480
some of the other agents to be smoking

667
00:34:18,659 --> 00:34:14,179
himself as as we call it down by the

668
00:34:22,060 --> 00:34:18,669
water and decided to send out that smoke

669
00:34:24,460 --> 00:34:22,070
to get some help in solving this case

670
00:34:26,620 --> 00:34:24,470
identifying a suspect they got an

671
00:34:28,450 --> 00:34:26,630
immediate response we were able to

672
00:34:30,340 --> 00:34:28,460
identify a suspect due to some

673
00:34:34,330 --> 00:34:30,350
information they received immediately

674
00:34:35,820 --> 00:34:34,340
and then the chase was on but you were

675
00:34:38,530 --> 00:34:35,830
also I imagined

676
00:34:42,250 --> 00:34:38,540
checking out other suspects at the same

677
00:34:45,369 --> 00:34:42,260
time while you initially started your

678
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:45,379
manhunt for Jean Hart which I think

679
00:34:51,790 --> 00:34:47,330
became like the biggest manhunt in

680
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:51,800
Oklahoma history did you have other

681
00:34:57,670 --> 00:34:55,490
suspects during that timer once you once

682
00:35:00,630 --> 00:34:57,680
you kind of drill down on Jean Hart with

683
00:35:03,250 --> 00:35:00,640
that photograph in the physical evidence

684
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:03,260
was that pretty much your course of

685
00:35:09,849 --> 00:35:05,930
action was to just search him out in

686
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:09,859
order to investigate him I I was a

687
00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:12,890
resounding no to that I mean there's a

688
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:22,150
is a suspect for the small s if you will

689
00:35:28,150 --> 00:35:25,010
and then the prime suspect and when I

690
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:28,160
said hundreds dick was always fond of

691
00:35:34,330 --> 00:35:30,530
saying that the investigation is defined

692
00:35:36,970 --> 00:35:34,340
as the process of elimination and you

693
00:35:40,570 --> 00:35:36,980
never good investigative technique is

694
00:35:42,670 --> 00:35:40,580
never to focus on any one individual and

695
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:42,680
try to build a case against that person

696
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:48,410
because with the resources applied you

697
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:51,410
can spend countless days or months and

698
00:35:56,109 --> 00:35:53,570
and then all of a sudden eliminate him

699
00:35:59,530 --> 00:35:56,119
so you do it in a reverse we try to

700
00:36:02,650 --> 00:35:59,540
eliminate individuals as suspects by

701
00:36:04,780 --> 00:36:02,660
alibis by fingerprints later by DNA

702
00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:04,790
which we do not have available to us at

703
00:36:10,150 --> 00:36:07,910
that time but we're I'm looking at some

704
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:10,160
of I've got about two or three inches

705
00:36:20,140 --> 00:36:16,010
thick of items that we had processed

706
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:20,150
from the crime scene and submitted to

707
00:36:26,830 --> 00:36:22,130
the laboratory and we're talking about

708
00:36:29,650 --> 00:36:26,840
hair fiber just every piece of trace

709
00:36:32,230 --> 00:36:29,660
evidence that you can imagine and you

710
00:36:35,830 --> 00:36:32,240
know we're taking trace evidence from

711
00:36:39,099 --> 00:36:35,840
all of the individuals at the camp and

712
00:36:42,730 --> 00:36:39,109
every suspect PJ Pat Wilkerson and I

713
00:36:45,790 --> 00:36:42,740
another brother we flew to Colorado one

714
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:45,800
time to interview a guy who is a suspect

715
00:36:52,980 --> 00:36:49,370
and so no not buying

716
00:36:55,810 --> 00:36:52,990
I don't even know at what point we

717
00:37:02,920 --> 00:36:55,820
believe that heart was the prime suspect

718
00:37:04,870 --> 00:37:02,930
but certainly we the Bureau agents we

719
00:37:06,460 --> 00:37:04,880
felt strongly about it as did the

720
00:37:08,470 --> 00:37:06,470
district attorney's office with the

721
00:37:11,790 --> 00:37:08,480
evidence that we had ultimately accrued

722
00:37:14,620 --> 00:37:11,800
against him that bear in mind that we

723
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:14,630
charges were filed against Gino Larry

724
00:37:22,810 --> 00:37:18,890
heart when all of us knew he had had a

725
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:22,820
vasectomy yet we had sperm spermatozoa

726
00:37:30,940 --> 00:37:27,370
in the girls and and we knew also that

727
00:37:35,860 --> 00:37:30,950
the doctor hit the form that for the

728
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:35,870
sectomy was elderly and I'm not saying

729
00:37:40,330 --> 00:37:37,930
that would necessarily go with a botched

730
00:37:42,250 --> 00:37:40,340
the second me but there is such a thing

731
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:42,260
as a botched affected me and that's what

732
00:37:48,550 --> 00:37:43,970
we felt had happened and it's what

733
00:37:52,780 --> 00:37:48,560
proved to be true because going back to

734
00:37:54,850 --> 00:37:52,790
probably adding to the evidence was his

735
00:37:58,210 --> 00:37:54,860
sexual appetite was such again I

736
00:38:01,450 --> 00:37:58,220
interviewed his wife and without going

737
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:01,460
into the details it was somewhat

738
00:38:07,210 --> 00:38:03,650
stunning how she would account his

739
00:38:10,690 --> 00:38:07,220
actions in that regard just but but my

740
00:38:14,410 --> 00:38:10,700
point is and Harvey you may remember

741
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:14,420
even more about this and I do but we

742
00:38:20,620 --> 00:38:18,650
were stymied I was visiting with buddy

743
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:20,630
foul us and we were stymied as to how we

744
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:25,130
can collect legally sperm from heart to

745
00:38:33,310 --> 00:38:30,010
compare with the sperm from the case and

746
00:38:35,230 --> 00:38:33,320
you can't exactly do things that one

747
00:38:37,030 --> 00:38:35,240
might imagine that would to say the

748
00:38:40,330 --> 00:38:37,040
least shock the conscience of the court

749
00:38:43,660 --> 00:38:40,340
and I remember we discussed the finger

750
00:38:46,410 --> 00:38:43,670
wave but that I was told by a medical

751
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:46,420
person would not produce sperm only a

752
00:38:53,830 --> 00:38:51,050
the fluid and so I'm not being facetious

753
00:38:58,390 --> 00:38:53,840
when I say that the law books are full

754
00:39:00,790 --> 00:38:58,400
of cases which will allow and the exact

755
00:39:03,370 --> 00:39:00,800
language I'm about to say police

756
00:39:07,749 --> 00:39:03,380
officers can use trickery

757
00:39:10,420 --> 00:39:07,759
such a few and defeat yep in cases and I

758
00:39:12,609 --> 00:39:10,430
guess we applied that legal concept if

759
00:39:14,109 --> 00:39:12,619
you will because I don't know who came

760
00:39:18,279 --> 00:39:14,119
up with the idea and maybe you remember

761
00:39:21,609 --> 00:39:18,289
Harvey but the idea came was to provide

762
00:39:23,140 --> 00:39:21,619
him with fresh underwear and the first

763
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:23,150
time it came a big lightning and

764
00:39:30,549 --> 00:39:27,410
thunderstorm the agents obtained all the

765
00:39:36,670 --> 00:39:30,559
sperm samples they could say grace over

766
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:36,680
and it proved those proved to be the

767
00:39:45,460 --> 00:39:40,490
same deformity the sperm deformity as

768
00:39:49,359 --> 00:39:45,470
was in the girls that's right there was

769
00:39:52,779 --> 00:39:49,369
some weird mutation about that sperm

770
00:39:55,450 --> 00:39:52,789
that made it easier to identify and I

771
00:40:00,249 --> 00:39:55,460
believed that they were able to identify

772
00:40:02,349 --> 00:40:00,259
that at some point as being from a

773
00:40:03,999 --> 00:40:02,359
native american and eliminating

774
00:40:06,190 --> 00:40:04,009
something like ninety-nine point nine

775
00:40:08,829 --> 00:40:06,200
percent of the Native American male

776
00:40:10,930 --> 00:40:08,839
population we may be speaking about the

777
00:40:13,870 --> 00:40:10,940
hair fiber there do you think that would

778
00:40:15,940 --> 00:40:13,880
be right Harvey you know I think I think

779
00:40:18,130 --> 00:40:15,950
that each other's in here oh okay so it

780
00:40:20,829 --> 00:40:18,140
was the hair sample that what they were

781
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:20,839
able to eliminate like ninety-nine

782
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:24,890
percent of all Native American males but

783
00:40:33,279 --> 00:40:29,170
Jean Hart I don't recall it that way

784
00:40:37,059 --> 00:40:33,289
that would be and again you based on

785
00:40:38,859 --> 00:40:37,069
what you've studied you may be more

786
00:40:42,759 --> 00:40:38,869
knowledgeable at this time at this late

787
00:40:47,589 --> 00:40:42,769
date than myself but the hair follicle

788
00:40:50,620 --> 00:40:47,599
the examinations proved to be fairly

789
00:40:53,740 --> 00:40:50,630
unreliable they were not it was not

790
00:40:56,259 --> 00:40:53,750
where we could exclude any particular

791
00:40:58,299 --> 00:40:56,269
individual as I remember it the only

792
00:41:00,970 --> 00:40:58,309
thing the hair fiber said that it was

793
00:41:05,319 --> 00:41:00,980
from the Native American individual and

794
00:41:11,140 --> 00:41:05,329
yes go ahead yeah if you if you did it

795
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:11,150
on a national basis it was it was it was

796
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:13,130
pretty limited but if you narrowed it

797
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:15,850
down in that area the

798
00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:20,050
the possibility became slimmer hmm

799
00:41:25,650 --> 00:41:22,250
depending on the database is what you're

800
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:25,660
saying yeah yeah I'm just yeah but right

801
00:41:29,740 --> 00:41:27,890
did you just look to that area that

802
00:41:32,740 --> 00:41:29,750
there would be more if you went

803
00:41:36,130 --> 00:41:32,750
nationally that it would be less City an

804
00:41:39,460 --> 00:41:36,140
actor Harrison terrible and Percy you

805
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:39,470
like it yeah pursuant to what you said

806
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:42,530
Arthur about you know by no means was

807
00:41:48,220 --> 00:41:45,410
Jean Hart your only suspect when I

808
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:48,230
talked to dick Wilkerson earlier who as

809
00:41:53,170 --> 00:41:50,450
we mentioned before was the chief

810
00:41:57,730 --> 00:41:53,180
investigator on the case or the lead

811
00:42:00,100 --> 00:41:57,740
investigator he said that his words were

812
00:42:03,790 --> 00:42:00,110
when he first heard to her Jean hearts

813
00:42:05,890 --> 00:42:03,800
name was go clear this guy or hang him

814
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:05,900
get rid of him one way or the other

815
00:42:10,900 --> 00:42:08,450
clear him if he's innocent hang him if

816
00:42:13,330 --> 00:42:10,910
he's guilty and with no preference

817
00:42:17,170 --> 00:42:13,340
either way just find out the truth of

818
00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:17,180
what it was so it wasn't a case of okay

819
00:42:21,010 --> 00:42:19,250
we've got this guy now let's pin it on

820
00:42:23,980 --> 00:42:21,020
somebody so we can close this case

821
00:42:26,620 --> 00:42:23,990
immediately it was too important of a

822
00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:26,630
case to be done that way in too much

823
00:42:31,630 --> 00:42:29,200
media scrutiny I mean this case made

824
00:42:33,010 --> 00:42:31,640
national news it could have made world

825
00:42:36,430 --> 00:42:33,020
news for all I know but I definitely

826
00:42:38,890 --> 00:42:36,440
know it made national news at the time

827
00:42:41,980 --> 00:42:38,900
it was highly controversial and

828
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:41,990
especially because of the of the three

829
00:42:49,180 --> 00:42:45,290
little girls and how heinous the crime

830
00:42:52,660 --> 00:42:49,190
was now what you had a sort of

831
00:42:55,570 --> 00:42:52,670
identified a gene heart as a suspect

832
00:42:58,960 --> 00:42:55,580
whether he was the only suspect or not I

833
00:43:00,880 --> 00:42:58,970
know that in the book written by the two

834
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:00,890
brothers Mike and dick Wilkerson called

835
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:04,010
someone cry for the children I remember

836
00:43:10,420 --> 00:43:07,690
reading a story Harvey about one time

837
00:43:13,330 --> 00:43:10,430
when well Mike I'm getting ahead of

838
00:43:17,740 --> 00:43:13,340
myself I know that it was at some point

839
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:17,750
where you know you went to go see a

840
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:21,650
medicine man and I'm trying to remember

841
00:43:25,330 --> 00:43:23,450
whether or not it was the medicine man

842
00:43:27,970 --> 00:43:25,340
who told you that Jean Hart was being

843
00:43:29,620 --> 00:43:27,980
helped by a very powerful medicine man

844
00:43:32,170 --> 00:43:29,630
or did you go see them

845
00:43:36,370 --> 00:43:32,180
the man because you knew that Jean Hart

846
00:43:38,740 --> 00:43:36,380
was used in medicine well I had you know

847
00:43:41,470 --> 00:43:38,750
we had heard all these rumors about the

848
00:43:45,789 --> 00:43:41,480
various things that were occurring and

849
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:45,799
that there was something kind of

850
00:43:50,319 --> 00:43:47,930
supernatural about what was going on

851
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:50,329
well people said he was a shape-shifter

852
00:43:55,779 --> 00:43:54,410
yes you know one thing's Atlas that was

853
00:44:00,480 --> 00:43:55,789
brought up that he was a shape shifter

854
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:00,490
and I I visited with very very powerful

855
00:44:09,789 --> 00:44:03,890
Native Americans man that's involved in

856
00:44:12,039 --> 00:44:09,799
in using those powers and you know and

857
00:44:13,990 --> 00:44:12,049
I've got nothing to say you know that

858
00:44:17,019 --> 00:44:14,000
people have been blessed by God over the

859
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:17,029
years to have certain abilities and God

860
00:44:20,559 --> 00:44:18,650
gives you certain abilities but if you

861
00:44:22,630 --> 00:44:20,569
use those abilities they become stronger

862
00:44:25,180 --> 00:44:22,640
some people never recognize their

863
00:44:27,670 --> 00:44:25,190
abilities and then never use it and some

864
00:44:30,849 --> 00:44:27,680
of us do and you go back into into

865
00:44:34,779 --> 00:44:30,859
history and and we're have been powerful

866
00:44:37,329 --> 00:44:34,789
people throughout history throughout the

867
00:44:43,630 --> 00:44:37,339
Bible you know Daniel in the lion's den

868
00:44:45,730 --> 00:44:43,640
you had the Moses you know who had a lot

869
00:44:47,650 --> 00:44:45,740
of things happen and mana from the sky

870
00:44:50,829 --> 00:44:47,660
and all sorts of things they had hours

871
00:44:54,789 --> 00:44:50,839
and they had gifts from God in and why

872
00:44:57,849 --> 00:44:54,799
would why would the people be restricted

873
00:45:00,190 --> 00:44:57,859
from having those abilities because they

874
00:45:01,809 --> 00:45:00,200
were from another race you know you had

875
00:45:05,499 --> 00:45:01,819
Randall from all different races that

876
00:45:08,620 --> 00:45:05,509
had powers in and Indian people had had

877
00:45:11,980 --> 00:45:08,630
those people that that that had special

878
00:45:16,990 --> 00:45:11,990
powers and I asked this man this man I

879
00:45:19,289 --> 00:45:17,000
stood up do you think that this gmail or

880
00:45:22,269 --> 00:45:19,299
heart has the capabilities of

881
00:45:24,970 --> 00:45:22,279
shape-shifting yell Ken can he do these

882
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:24,980
things can he change and transform

883
00:45:30,549 --> 00:45:27,970
himself to do in the animals and a

884
00:45:32,859 --> 00:45:30,559
possessor possessed their their

885
00:45:35,410 --> 00:45:32,869
abilities to get away and he said you

886
00:45:36,940 --> 00:45:35,420
know Harvey you said there's nobody in

887
00:45:39,430 --> 00:45:36,950
this area that can be that there's

888
00:45:43,150 --> 00:45:39,440
nobody down here that can do that it

889
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:43,160
takes a long time to at

890
00:45:48,850 --> 00:45:46,850
a lot of work and a lot of sacrifice to

891
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:48,860
be able to be capable of doing certain

892
00:45:53,620 --> 00:45:51,170
things he said it took me a long time to

893
00:45:56,830 --> 00:45:53,630
get to where I am and he was an elderly

894
00:45:59,200 --> 00:45:56,840
man if it it takes a while to do those

895
00:46:02,560 --> 00:45:59,210
things if you know you have to really be

896
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:02,570
blessed by God to have certain abilities

897
00:46:08,260 --> 00:46:04,730
and he said and I just don't think that

898
00:46:10,060 --> 00:46:08,270
this man who has been accused of all

899
00:46:13,330 --> 00:46:10,070
these things and made charged with all

900
00:46:16,380 --> 00:46:13,340
these abuses has taken a time and the

901
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:16,390
sacrifice now we got people that do

902
00:46:22,030 --> 00:46:18,890
religious ceremonies and they go through

903
00:46:24,730 --> 00:46:22,040
a lot of ceremony and a lot of time to

904
00:46:28,150 --> 00:46:24,740
get to a certain point to become an

905
00:46:31,810 --> 00:46:28,160
arrow people to become a Sundance priest

906
00:46:34,510 --> 00:46:31,820
it takes effort and a long time and I

907
00:46:38,020 --> 00:46:34,520
just didn't I history I wasn't sure but

908
00:46:39,670 --> 00:46:38,030
I was I couldn't be sure but I wanted to

909
00:46:41,170 --> 00:46:39,680
make sure that we were protected I

910
00:46:42,850 --> 00:46:41,180
wanted to make sure that we were

911
00:46:46,210 --> 00:46:42,860
protected and I had my brother with me

912
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:46,220
and I wanted to make sure that that we

913
00:46:51,340 --> 00:46:49,010
had to have these protections that it in

914
00:46:56,950 --> 00:46:51,350
the event that we were out there in

915
00:46:58,930 --> 00:46:56,960
nature doing things that we were we were

916
00:47:01,660 --> 00:46:58,940
going to be protected and not just walk

917
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:01,670
out there and be at the mercy of

918
00:47:11,650 --> 00:47:10,010
somebody so it's a we did I asked him to

919
00:47:13,780 --> 00:47:11,660
give me certain protections you know to

920
00:47:16,210 --> 00:47:13,790
help me do these things and and when

921
00:47:18,850 --> 00:47:16,220
they give you those things there's there

922
00:47:20,980 --> 00:47:18,860
are ceremonies and there's a things that

923
00:47:23,290 --> 00:47:20,990
you have to do and sacrifices that you

924
00:47:26,260 --> 00:47:23,300
have to make in order to have these

925
00:47:28,390 --> 00:47:26,270
towers to have this strength and so it's

926
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:28,400
not just you just don't give somebody

927
00:47:32,350 --> 00:47:30,410
something without a sacrifice and

928
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:32,360
without having to to go through

929
00:47:39,190 --> 00:47:35,090
something we don't believe that the

930
00:47:41,530 --> 00:47:39,200
Creator it's okay to pray but if you

931
00:47:43,540 --> 00:47:41,540
make a sacrifice and do something to

932
00:47:45,910 --> 00:47:43,550
show that you are you're really serious

933
00:47:50,710 --> 00:47:45,920
about about whatever you're asking the

934
00:47:52,210 --> 00:47:50,720
Creator God to do to help you in like a

935
00:47:53,890 --> 00:47:52,220
God looks down on just says you're

936
00:47:55,300 --> 00:47:53,900
making a bigger sacrifice rather than

937
00:47:57,250 --> 00:47:55,310
just praying and a sleep or something

938
00:47:59,920 --> 00:47:57,260
you're giving something

939
00:48:03,220 --> 00:47:59,930
you're making an effort so that's what

940
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:03,230
we do so I just don't think now I just

941
00:48:07,150 --> 00:48:05,090
don't think that genes new your heart

942
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:07,160
could do those things because he didn't

943
00:48:12,790 --> 00:48:10,010
have I didn't think he had the stamina

944
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:12,800
or the conviction to do them but at that

945
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:14,810
particular time I was I was concerned

946
00:48:21,790 --> 00:48:18,290
about it so I ash forgot medicines to

947
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:21,800
help us into to make this in make us

948
00:48:26,650 --> 00:48:24,650
invisible and we have we have people now

949
00:48:29,650 --> 00:48:26,660
Native American people that are overseas

950
00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:29,660
in war that got medicine from their

951
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:31,730
people to make them invisible at certain

952
00:48:37,720 --> 00:48:34,610
times and you give them strength and and

953
00:48:39,670 --> 00:48:37,730
I got to I got I've always used when I

954
00:48:41,980 --> 00:48:39,680
was in Vietnam I had medicine health a

955
00:48:44,410 --> 00:48:41,990
stick if I believe something's going to

956
00:48:46,450 --> 00:48:44,420
help me and if I believe I have a

957
00:48:48,490 --> 00:48:46,460
certain power do you not think that that

958
00:48:51,910 --> 00:48:48,500
makes me a stronger person if I believed

959
00:48:54,580 --> 00:48:51,920
it yes I said I have the power to run

960
00:48:57,010 --> 00:48:54,590
faster at a high to be more powerful a

961
00:48:59,620 --> 00:48:57,020
type of power the bear or the power of

962
00:49:01,690 --> 00:48:59,630
the leper or something and and can I

963
00:49:05,010 --> 00:49:01,700
believe that that I had makes me a

964
00:49:08,350 --> 00:49:05,020
stronger person and that's the way it is

965
00:49:10,930 --> 00:49:08,360
so we had these different things I have

966
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:10,940
it we had an invisible medicine that he

967
00:49:16,390 --> 00:49:12,290
gave her said and we had to use a

968
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:16,400
certain way and that we could if we used

969
00:49:20,230 --> 00:49:17,690
it properly and we had a proper

970
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:20,240
sacrifice that we did we were able to be

971
00:49:26,470 --> 00:49:22,850
invisible and that's what I believe we

972
00:49:28,420 --> 00:49:26,480
had medicine to attract interactive

973
00:49:30,670 --> 00:49:28,430
medicine he said if you get close to him

974
00:49:32,260 --> 00:49:30,680
you said you put this down until never

975
00:49:34,540 --> 00:49:32,270
get away from you you'll be a bit of

976
00:49:37,930 --> 00:49:34,550
duty didn't you give you medicine for

977
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:37,940
your bullets yes you could put on your

978
00:49:43,660 --> 00:49:39,890
boat so they would go to the right place

979
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:43,670
only so they would they would not go

980
00:49:47,470 --> 00:49:45,290
anywhere else where they're supposed to

981
00:49:49,450 --> 00:49:47,480
go they would not harm anybody else they

982
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:49,460
would be just for for what you were

983
00:49:53,860 --> 00:49:51,170
supposed to do to protect yourself and

984
00:49:57,220 --> 00:49:53,870
others and so I and I still had that I

985
00:50:00,550 --> 00:49:57,230
still have that in my possession I you

986
00:50:03,910 --> 00:50:00,560
know I know when I went to visit Mike

987
00:50:07,180 --> 00:50:03,920
Wilkerson in Tulsa back you know 15 20

988
00:50:09,380 --> 00:50:07,190
years ago he had his medicine bag that

989
00:50:12,470 --> 00:50:09,390
he got at the time

990
00:50:18,140 --> 00:50:12,480
and he still carried it he still had it

991
00:50:22,210 --> 00:50:18,150
still had it now yeah I agree that you

992
00:50:25,370 --> 00:50:22,220
know Jean Hart was probably not uh

993
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:25,380
didn't have those abilities because

994
00:50:31,790 --> 00:50:28,160
isn't there also something that you know

995
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:31,800
wouldn't he I mean doing the heinous

996
00:50:37,660 --> 00:50:35,130
things that he was doing and you know

997
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:37,670
hurting people the way that he was

998
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:41,570
wouldn't that affect his ability

999
00:50:49,970 --> 00:50:46,290
abilities to use medicine like can you

1000
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:49,980
use medicine for evil purposes well yeah

1001
00:50:55,610 --> 00:50:53,490
sure absolutely you know you have which

1002
00:50:57,140 --> 00:50:55,620
is he healthy Boston with you hear

1003
00:50:58,940 --> 00:50:57,150
people brought throughout this can they

1004
00:51:01,310 --> 00:50:58,950
talk about which is using speaking

1005
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:01,320
things to deceive and to take advantage

1006
00:51:07,340 --> 00:51:04,290
of people to make them do things and so

1007
00:51:10,910 --> 00:51:07,350
you have it and and uh you know this is

1008
00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:10,920
the enterprise nation army isn't there

1009
00:51:16,790 --> 00:51:14,160
isn't there a price that you pay if you

1010
00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:16,800
use a medicine man's power for evil

1011
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:20,250
purposes or that you know it seems like

1012
00:51:26,750 --> 00:51:22,170
I recall something about this story

1013
00:51:30,470 --> 00:51:26,760
where what they wanted it sure the

1014
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:30,480
turkey should go if it's good that they

1015
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:34,130
themselves if you use the power for evil

1016
00:51:40,070 --> 00:51:37,410
you'll die it could come back on you

1017
00:51:42,290 --> 00:51:40,080
come back on you right yeah see so

1018
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:42,300
that's you have to be careful if you use

1019
00:51:49,790 --> 00:51:47,490
something to harm somebody that it could

1020
00:51:51,620 --> 00:51:49,800
come back on you that could the country

1021
00:51:53,570 --> 00:51:51,630
versus my Methodist medicine men that I

1022
00:51:56,090 --> 00:51:53,580
want to say that people would always

1023
00:51:59,090 --> 00:51:56,100
send step to him and he had a certain he

1024
00:52:00,980 --> 00:51:59,100
had a certain medicine and ceremony that

1025
00:52:03,290 --> 00:52:00,990
he used at the reverse ensena fact

1026
00:52:07,970 --> 00:52:03,300
whoever sent it to him so you have that

1027
00:52:12,290 --> 00:52:07,980
you know kid attraction oh now I believe

1028
00:52:14,810 --> 00:52:12,300
oh sorry go ahead oh he told me that he

1029
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:14,820
had that he had a certain sermon that he

1030
00:52:19,340 --> 00:52:16,650
did to protect his property and someone

1031
00:52:23,630 --> 00:52:19,350
came to harm him that it went across his

1032
00:52:30,020 --> 00:52:23,640
point across his uh is a lying

1033
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:30,030
that it would die so yeah you do that

1034
00:52:36,590 --> 00:52:33,570
you know so we were my whole life Renee

1035
00:52:39,410 --> 00:52:36,600
my whole life I've I listened to these

1036
00:52:42,230 --> 00:52:39,420
these stories from my dad calls were

1037
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:42,240
born in 1870 and he told me all kinds of

1038
00:52:46,340 --> 00:52:44,010
stories my mother told me stories she

1039
00:52:48,830 --> 00:52:46,350
was an interpreter when she was a little

1040
00:52:50,810 --> 00:52:48,840
girl or medicine man it and so I've

1041
00:52:56,030 --> 00:52:50,820
heard these stories my entire life so I

1042
00:52:57,710 --> 00:52:56,040
grew up with it as had many many Indian

1043
00:53:03,950 --> 00:52:57,720
people in Oklahoma have grown up to

1044
00:53:05,450 --> 00:53:03,960
these stories the leech and I am yes

1045
00:53:10,070 --> 00:53:05,460
I've heard I heard a lot of those

1046
00:53:13,460 --> 00:53:10,080
growing up and you know you're right

1047
00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:13,470
they're very very interesting and you

1048
00:53:19,850 --> 00:53:16,650
know I have seen some things in the

1049
00:53:23,300 --> 00:53:19,860
presence of a medicine man that I could

1050
00:53:28,070 --> 00:53:23,310
not explain and you will not change my

1051
00:53:30,830 --> 00:53:28,080
mind that something supernatural you

1052
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:30,840
know happened it was I saw they go to

1053
00:53:36,970 --> 00:53:34,530
some kind of power here is there is

1054
00:53:39,530 --> 00:53:36,980
something now we're going to take

1055
00:53:41,450 --> 00:53:39,540
another quick break and then come back

1056
00:53:44,570 --> 00:53:41,460
for the final now Bauer my gosh this is

1057
00:53:46,790 --> 00:53:44,580
going so fast when we come back Harvey

1058
00:53:48,890 --> 00:53:46,800
and Arthur pardon me I'm going to

1059
00:53:52,490 --> 00:53:48,900
definitely get back to you but I wanted

1060
00:53:54,860 --> 00:53:52,500
you to tell us about the story when you

1061
00:53:56,420 --> 00:53:54,870
had got went and got the medicine and I

1062
00:53:57,980 --> 00:53:56,430
believe you were wearing it around your

1063
00:54:01,040 --> 00:53:57,990
neck and you and your brother were out

1064
00:54:04,130 --> 00:54:01,050
camping out during the course of this

1065
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:04,140
manhunt and what happened so when we

1066
00:54:08,090 --> 00:54:06,330
come back if you don't mind Harvey I'm

1067
00:54:11,630 --> 00:54:08,100
going to impose on you for that story

1068
00:54:14,240 --> 00:54:11,640
and we'll get to the final outcome of

1069
00:54:15,950 --> 00:54:14,250
the case we'll be right back you're

1070
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:15,960
listening to night vision radio I'm your

1071
00:54:20,330 --> 00:54:18,450
host Renee Barnett tonight is a very

1072
00:54:23,690 --> 00:54:20,340
special edition of the show we're

1073
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:23,700
covering the infamous Oklahoma Girl

1074
00:54:31,130 --> 00:54:28,290
Scout murders in all the strange aspects

1075
00:54:33,050 --> 00:54:31,140
of that case including the conclusion

1076
00:54:35,780 --> 00:54:33,060
which we'll get to in this final

1077
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:35,790
half-hour want to remind every everyone

1078
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:37,050
that this show

1079
00:54:43,670 --> 00:54:40,290
will re-air on wednesday on the

1080
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:43,680
twenty-ninth of july next week at six pm

1081
00:54:49,310 --> 00:54:47,490
eastern time so if you missed any of

1082
00:54:52,250 --> 00:54:49,320
tonight's show or if you want to review

1083
00:54:54,250 --> 00:54:52,260
it you can listen again and we're going

1084
00:54:56,330 --> 00:54:54,260
to immediately proceed to show

1085
00:54:59,360 --> 00:54:56,340
supernatural girls with Patricia Baker

1086
00:55:01,220 --> 00:54:59,370
and Patricia has some special guests and

1087
00:55:04,130 --> 00:55:01,230
she's going to continue to talk about

1088
00:55:07,010 --> 00:55:04,140
this case next Wednesday night so if

1089
00:55:09,260 --> 00:55:07,020
you're interested in this story you may

1090
00:55:11,420 --> 00:55:09,270
want to tune in next Wednesday night for

1091
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:11,430
a double-header this show will repeat

1092
00:55:15,740 --> 00:55:13,170
and then supernatural girls it's going

1093
00:55:17,870 --> 00:55:15,750
to cover the same subject matter so it's

1094
00:55:21,050 --> 00:55:17,880
going to be a good one I may have

1095
00:55:23,510 --> 00:55:21,060
something down the line also from

1096
00:55:25,670 --> 00:55:23,520
another one of inception radio shows

1097
00:55:28,460 --> 00:55:25,680
that method is involved in investigating

1098
00:55:30,980 --> 00:55:28,470
this case so my goodness it just so

1099
00:55:33,620 --> 00:55:30,990
happened that we all figured out that we

1100
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:33,630
had a common interest in this story so

1101
00:55:40,940 --> 00:55:36,690
please join us as we repeat this show on

1102
00:55:44,030 --> 00:55:40,950
Wednesday up so Harvey back to the

1103
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:44,040
medicine in you and your brother I'm

1104
00:55:50,930 --> 00:55:45,890
sorry I don't know your brother's name

1105
00:55:54,020 --> 00:55:50,940
OD in and lower out there in the Tony

1106
00:55:55,910 --> 00:55:54,030
were out there in the woods and you were

1107
00:56:00,320 --> 00:55:55,920
camping out and just basically looking

1108
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:00,330
like two guys out on a camping trip you

1109
00:56:06,860 --> 00:56:02,370
know / hope hoping to portray that image

1110
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:06,870
to indian guys yeah my brother is a was

1111
00:56:12,740 --> 00:56:08,610
a Midwest he was a police officer from

1112
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:12,750
municipal government and i asked him

1113
00:56:19,310 --> 00:56:16,130
came to let him send him the closest of

1114
00:56:21,470 --> 00:56:19,320
being out and dealing with me with this

1115
00:56:25,010 --> 00:56:21,480
folklore in 8th american and I'm tonight

1116
00:56:28,130 --> 00:56:25,020
I wanted him to be with me and and so

1117
00:56:30,050 --> 00:56:28,140
they let him they transferred him to for

1118
00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:30,060
my agency and we were at we work

1119
00:56:34,910 --> 00:56:32,250
together for about two weeks so

1120
00:56:37,790 --> 00:56:34,920
throughout that whole area in the woods

1121
00:56:41,740 --> 00:56:37,800
again some bars and just try to pick up

1122
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:41,750
anything we could and and that we had

1123
00:56:45,980 --> 00:56:44,130
several years earlier I had given him

1124
00:56:48,539 --> 00:56:45,990
some some medicine from the same

1125
00:56:52,829 --> 00:56:48,549
medicine man and and I had

1126
00:56:55,349 --> 00:56:52,839
I had told them he told me so now there

1127
00:56:56,910 --> 00:56:55,359
are certain things you have to do in

1128
00:56:58,890 --> 00:56:56,920
order for this medicine working a

1129
00:57:00,419 --> 00:56:58,900
getting certain guidelines and rules and

1130
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:00,429
he said and you can't let it touch the

1131
00:57:05,069 --> 00:57:03,249
ground aust you know sighs okay so I had

1132
00:57:07,529 --> 00:57:05,079
three pieces I gave one to Tony wonder

1133
00:57:13,199 --> 00:57:07,539
myself and wonder my two mentioned

1134
00:57:14,609 --> 00:57:13,209
earlier Jack and I dropped one and when

1135
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:14,619
I picked it up I just mix them all up

1136
00:57:20,370 --> 00:57:17,650
and I didn't and I didn't know which who

1137
00:57:26,309 --> 00:57:20,380
got what and so my my brother got it and

1138
00:57:28,109 --> 00:57:26,319
he he worked and disappear and so he's

1139
00:57:29,699 --> 00:57:28,119
getting eaten away he said I'm exactly

1140
00:57:33,509 --> 00:57:29,709
just experience out of what happened in

1141
00:57:34,919 --> 00:57:33,519
I was outside water on it and so he told

1142
00:57:37,979 --> 00:57:34,929
me he couldn't find it so I went back to

1143
00:57:39,390 --> 00:57:37,989
to this man that gave it to us and I

1144
00:57:40,439 --> 00:57:39,400
told him what happened he started

1145
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:40,449
laughing he said we'll come back

1146
00:57:43,589 --> 00:57:41,650
tomorrow and I'll have another one for

1147
00:57:46,679 --> 00:57:43,599
you said I told you not to mother cuts

1148
00:57:49,650 --> 00:57:46,689
the grass and as one of the rooms yeah

1149
00:57:52,289 --> 00:57:49,660
so we so we carry the same sentence

1150
00:57:56,130 --> 00:57:52,299
protections to help protect us from from

1151
00:57:59,640 --> 00:57:56,140
harm and so we're out and we had heard

1152
00:58:01,289 --> 00:57:59,650
all these stories about about an Indian

1153
00:58:03,509 --> 00:58:01,299
who was doing all these things he may

1154
00:58:08,009 --> 00:58:03,519
possibly be the killer so and that he

1155
00:58:10,169 --> 00:58:08,019
had was uh he was a he told a long in

1156
00:58:12,749 --> 00:58:10,179
dec when they were looking for me he was

1157
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:12,759
above and that he was below I don't know

1158
00:58:18,209 --> 00:58:14,890
what he means by that but I'll just

1159
00:58:20,459 --> 00:58:18,219
assume that that he could have assumed

1160
00:58:23,910 --> 00:58:20,469
you know if he was a shape changer he

1161
00:58:26,699 --> 00:58:23,920
siemens he was assuming some some other

1162
00:58:33,150 --> 00:58:26,709
animal that that we could really see as

1163
00:58:34,890 --> 00:58:33,160
a it's just a maker mm-hmm so we had

1164
00:58:38,099 --> 00:58:34,900
been out and we had actually we had gone

1165
00:58:40,439 --> 00:58:38,109
out and boxer mom lifting devices they

1166
00:58:43,769 --> 00:58:40,449
were vibratory devices that we strung

1167
00:58:45,890 --> 00:58:43,779
along the trails that if someone walked

1168
00:58:47,789 --> 00:58:45,900
then I had a receiver that would show

1169
00:58:49,559 --> 00:58:47,799
vibration that someone is walking

1170
00:58:52,229 --> 00:58:49,569
through the woods and so we had strung

1171
00:58:56,579 --> 00:58:52,239
these all out along the area there was

1172
00:59:00,809 --> 00:58:56,589
also a military group out there also

1173
00:59:02,010 --> 00:59:00,819
that was laying out kind of capture

1174
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:02,020
somebody and they were

1175
00:59:08,100 --> 00:59:06,250
Special Forces guys about 45 and so they

1176
00:59:10,530 --> 00:59:08,110
were down down by the creek another way

1177
00:59:12,270 --> 00:59:10,540
and we were up this way and we told me

1178
00:59:18,210 --> 00:59:12,280
in our strong these devices at him and

1179
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:18,220
we had gone gone away and and we had

1180
00:59:22,050 --> 00:59:19,930
been out for quite a while and we differ

1181
00:59:23,910 --> 00:59:22,060
very small fire and we were sitting

1182
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:23,920
there and and someone actually said

1183
00:59:27,630 --> 00:59:25,690
around why did you build a possible is

1184
00:59:31,650 --> 00:59:27,640
not for the waters for the comfort of

1185
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:31,660
fire it was just fire it just it was

1186
00:59:38,370 --> 00:59:34,690
just it was a comfort and so we were

1187
00:59:43,890 --> 00:59:38,380
there and out of them out of nowhere a

1188
00:59:45,510 --> 00:59:43,900
cat landed in my lap and just just

1189
00:59:49,020 --> 00:59:45,520
wanted out of the dark and landing in

1190
00:59:51,030 --> 00:59:49,030
Manhattan and it startled me I grabbed

1191
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:51,040
it cleared away and and we were just

1192
00:59:56,670 --> 00:59:53,530
lured you're shocked and right away of

1193
00:59:59,040 --> 00:59:56,680
personal injury thought was that could

1194
01:00:01,620 --> 00:59:59,050
this be somebody who had shaped changed

1195
01:00:04,350 --> 01:00:01,630
and the shapeshifter an end and then

1196
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:04,360
come to tease us and then tour business

1197
01:00:09,090 --> 01:00:07,090
and that's what we that's what I my

1198
01:00:11,820 --> 01:00:09,100
immediate thoughts were that and then

1199
01:00:15,090 --> 01:00:11,830
with Emily the whole night and in that

1200
01:00:18,450 --> 01:00:15,100
morning dawn came we got it from the

1201
01:00:21,810 --> 01:00:18,460
ground okay that is so dark out there it

1202
01:00:24,180 --> 01:00:21,820
is year old dark in those woods and the

1203
01:00:27,420 --> 01:00:24,190
canopy of the trees you could barely see

1204
01:00:30,690 --> 01:00:27,430
the sea the stars and and you could walk

1205
01:00:32,190 --> 01:00:30,700
somewhere and summer can be you can walk

1206
01:00:34,950 --> 01:00:32,200
by somebody and not even know they were

1207
01:00:37,500 --> 01:00:34,960
there so that morning we went by to

1208
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:37,510
retrieve our are listening devices and

1209
01:00:43,740 --> 01:00:40,330
we ran into those Special Forces guys

1210
01:00:45,870 --> 01:00:43,750
and we said in the we had a vision

1211
01:00:48,330 --> 01:00:45,880
weekend for 30 minutes or so and then

1212
01:00:50,970 --> 01:00:48,340
everybody stood up to win our way but I

1213
01:00:54,690 --> 01:00:50,980
never forgot about that checking out and

1214
01:00:58,440 --> 01:00:54,700
not right just ever know what kind of a

1215
01:01:04,740 --> 01:00:58,450
cat was it you know it was a I think it

1216
01:01:07,290 --> 01:01:04,750
was a feral cat it was just like a

1217
01:01:09,390 --> 01:01:07,300
little noise like a bobcat and not like

1218
01:01:14,150 --> 01:01:09,400
a bobcat or a mountain when it was like

1219
01:01:15,900 --> 01:01:14,160
a just a ferret fair big investor change

1220
01:01:18,529 --> 01:01:15,910
well welcome

1221
01:01:24,980 --> 01:01:18,539
strange just jumped right in your lap

1222
01:01:28,620 --> 01:01:24,990
yes to my left that is really weird now

1223
01:01:31,170 --> 01:01:28,630
Arthur I know that there was you know as

1224
01:01:36,049 --> 01:01:31,180
I said it was like at the time and maybe

1225
01:01:40,069 --> 01:01:36,059
to this day was the biggest manhunt in

1226
01:01:42,870 --> 01:01:40,079
Oklahoma history there were all kinds of

1227
01:01:46,670 --> 01:01:42,880
helicopters and planes brought in and

1228
01:01:49,370 --> 01:01:46,680
different agencies were involved and

1229
01:01:52,079 --> 01:01:49,380
then they brought in these special

1230
01:01:56,760 --> 01:01:52,089
tracking dogs from Pennsylvania i

1231
01:01:58,020 --> 01:01:56,770
believe it was egg can you tell us a

1232
01:01:59,640 --> 01:01:58,030
little bit about what happened with

1233
01:02:02,760 --> 01:01:59,650
those dogs that was another strange

1234
01:02:07,349 --> 01:02:02,770
story well the dog handler was a

1235
01:02:09,150 --> 01:02:07,359
charlatan he was a fake he just being

1236
01:02:13,529 --> 01:02:09,160
criminally prosecuted and may have been

1237
01:02:15,599 --> 01:02:13,539
I have since testified at two hearings

1238
01:02:18,599 --> 01:02:15,609
regarding two separate murders one in

1239
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:18,609
Phoenix Arizona the other in Florida

1240
01:02:26,039 --> 01:02:21,490
where people had been convicted based on

1241
01:02:29,549 --> 01:02:26,049
this man's testimony and he was Helen

1242
01:02:32,579 --> 01:02:29,559
told disrepute with with any people that

1243
01:02:34,019 --> 01:02:32,589
dog handlers with legitimate bloodhounds

1244
01:02:36,269 --> 01:02:34,029
and things like that and he was a

1245
01:02:37,950 --> 01:02:36,279
showman I can't even recall the man's

1246
01:02:40,890 --> 01:02:37,960
name I've tried to put it out of my

1247
01:02:43,289 --> 01:02:40,900
memory but the ludicrous e of it was

1248
01:02:45,210 --> 01:02:43,299
that when I recall one of the days that

1249
01:02:48,870 --> 01:02:45,220
I arrived again I'm flying back and

1250
01:02:52,079 --> 01:02:48,880
forth from Oklahoma City a lot but with

1251
01:02:54,059 --> 01:02:52,089
evidence but when I arrived there I

1252
01:02:56,940 --> 01:02:54,069
never will forget it reminded me of the

1253
01:03:01,279 --> 01:02:56,950
movie of North by Northwest and we and I

1254
01:03:04,859 --> 01:03:01,289
believe it might have been biplanes

1255
01:03:06,559 --> 01:03:04,869
because of her crop dusters and trying

1256
01:03:09,750 --> 01:03:06,569
to think of the plane I should know that

1257
01:03:11,700 --> 01:03:09,760
but a Stearman that may or may not have

1258
01:03:13,890 --> 01:03:11,710
been but they were they were treetop

1259
01:03:16,859 --> 01:03:13,900
level a little above and and they were

1260
01:03:18,870 --> 01:03:16,869
spraying the entire camp with water and

1261
01:03:21,599 --> 01:03:18,880
I recall there were two of them and

1262
01:03:24,299 --> 01:03:21,609
making pass after path I learned later

1263
01:03:28,140 --> 01:03:24,309
that this was at the request of the dog

1264
01:03:31,890 --> 01:03:28,150
handler who was wanting to push

1265
01:03:35,789 --> 01:03:31,900
this moisture the scent of the tracks of

1266
01:03:38,099 --> 01:03:35,799
the perpetrator of these crimes down

1267
01:03:40,109 --> 01:03:38,109
from the leaves and the trees back to

1268
01:03:42,809 --> 01:03:40,119
the ground or he could then follow them

1269
01:03:49,859 --> 01:03:42,819
with his dogs you just can't make it up

1270
01:03:53,029 --> 01:03:49,869
and so and then I I witnessed him in the

1271
01:03:56,370 --> 01:03:53,039
dog in the front of the canoe in a pond

1272
01:04:00,240 --> 01:03:56,380
where this dog handler was saying he was

1273
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:00,250
snipping the pond for the murder weapon

1274
01:04:04,410 --> 01:04:02,770
or a murderer weapon or any evidence

1275
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:04,420
that might have been thrown into the

1276
01:04:11,700 --> 01:04:06,490
pond that was at the bottom of the pond

1277
01:04:15,599 --> 01:04:11,710
and I got crossways with him because I

1278
01:04:18,150 --> 01:04:15,609
recall when we had the box full of all

1279
01:04:20,339 --> 01:04:18,160
of the evidence and we had gloves and

1280
01:04:24,079 --> 01:04:20,349
included these newspapers coming back

1281
01:04:26,609 --> 01:04:24,089
from the cave where incontrovertible

1282
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:26,619
incontrovertibly was what was linked to

1283
01:04:31,589 --> 01:04:29,890
the crime scene my gosh the the leading

1284
01:04:36,089 --> 01:04:31,599
edge of the tape at the scene of the

1285
01:04:38,730 --> 01:04:36,099
crime scene matched the torn edge of the

1286
01:04:42,210 --> 01:04:38,740
tape used to put the to diffuse the

1287
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:42,220
light with a plastic the newspaper was

1288
01:04:50,849 --> 01:04:47,650
exactly the same edition in April 217 a

1289
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:50,859
same edition is funding the paper of the

1290
01:04:56,490 --> 01:04:54,490
the Tulsa paper and then the photographs

1291
01:04:59,039 --> 01:04:56,500
at the crime scene later but even before

1292
01:05:01,109 --> 01:04:59,049
then there's no doubt on earth that any

1293
01:05:03,779 --> 01:05:01,119
investigator would realize instantly

1294
01:05:07,410 --> 01:05:03,789
that the crime that whoever perpetrated

1295
01:05:10,260 --> 01:05:07,420
the crime the crime scene was connected

1296
01:05:12,539 --> 01:05:10,270
to k vice versa and now the dog handler

1297
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:12,549
took his dogs up there and took one

1298
01:05:16,980 --> 01:05:14,890
sniff of this and came back and readily

1299
01:05:23,010 --> 01:05:16,990
announced that that none of this

1300
01:05:27,210 --> 01:05:23,020
evidence from the cave site was

1301
01:05:28,769 --> 01:05:27,220
connected to the crime and I got in hot

1302
01:05:30,599 --> 01:05:28,779
water because I'm asking one of my

1303
01:05:32,370 --> 01:05:30,609
supervisors you know whether we're

1304
01:05:34,950 --> 01:05:32,380
running the investigation of this dog

1305
01:05:37,260 --> 01:05:34,960
handler or maybe even the dog I didn't

1306
01:05:40,349 --> 01:05:37,270
actually say that but I drew a lot of

1307
01:05:42,089 --> 01:05:40,359
heat for that but it was just it was

1308
01:05:46,140 --> 01:05:42,099
comical and it was a

1309
01:05:48,979 --> 01:05:46,150
run to the investigation and I strongly

1310
01:05:52,769 --> 01:05:48,989
believe that outcome I haven't been

1311
01:05:56,789 --> 01:05:52,779
different but had it not have been for

1312
01:06:01,079 --> 01:05:56,799
them but you know and and while we're

1313
01:06:03,809 --> 01:06:01,089
talking about the evidence I I happen to

1314
01:06:06,630 --> 01:06:03,819
been in charge of well the largest mass

1315
01:06:08,670 --> 01:06:06,640
murders at its time in Oklahoma murder

1316
01:06:12,559 --> 01:06:08,680
of nine individuals a family of three

1317
01:06:15,269 --> 01:06:12,569
and then later six at a steakhouse and

1318
01:06:18,029 --> 01:06:15,279
if there had been a popular vote before

1319
01:06:20,789 --> 01:06:18,039
the preliminary hearing of either that

1320
01:06:24,450 --> 01:06:20,799
man roger dale stafford or flee jeanne

1321
01:06:27,029 --> 01:06:24,460
very heart there's no doubt in my mind

1322
01:06:29,219 --> 01:06:27,039
at the general election a popular

1323
01:06:32,249 --> 01:06:29,229
popular vote of guilt or innocence would

1324
01:06:35,390 --> 01:06:32,259
have exonerated heart at the time I mean

1325
01:06:38,609 --> 01:06:35,400
before preliminary hearing and found a

1326
01:06:40,829 --> 01:06:38,619
ROG Dale Stafford guilty and you

1327
01:06:43,109 --> 01:06:40,839
characterized it earlier and I read a

1328
01:06:45,029 --> 01:06:43,119
newspaper account as I was reviewing my

1329
01:06:48,239 --> 01:06:45,039
case here where they would it would

1330
01:06:52,579 --> 01:06:48,249
incessantly be referred to as former

1331
01:06:56,579 --> 01:06:52,589
Locust Grove football star yes and I

1332
01:06:58,650 --> 01:06:56,589
think dick and Mike pointed out that

1333
01:07:00,269 --> 01:06:58,660
when you have neighbors or someone you

1334
01:07:01,709 --> 01:07:00,279
know real well and you've seen them on

1335
01:07:03,839 --> 01:07:01,719
the football field and they're at the

1336
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:03,849
hamburger joint and all you don't think

1337
01:07:08,759 --> 01:07:06,130
of them as a mad dog killer or rapist

1338
01:07:10,709 --> 01:07:08,769
you think of that he didn't match the

1339
01:07:13,140 --> 01:07:10,719
prototype if you will of a Charlie

1340
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:13,150
Manson but it didn't match the prototype

1341
01:07:16,859 --> 01:07:15,130
either of the ROG Dale Stafford because

1342
01:07:20,190 --> 01:07:16,869
he was portrayed by the same news

1343
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:20,200
media's my dog killer from Alabama and I

1344
01:07:26,309 --> 01:07:22,450
guess what I'm saying is the news media

1345
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:26,319
bias in this case in my opinion was just

1346
01:07:35,910 --> 01:07:28,690
astounding and it was someone of a

1347
01:07:39,109 --> 01:07:35,920
precursor in my opinion to the oj

1348
01:07:42,420 --> 01:07:39,119
simpson case because we had a minority

1349
01:07:46,650 --> 01:07:42,430
defendant there and the news media bias

1350
01:07:49,109 --> 01:07:46,660
in his paper was astronomical but the

1351
01:07:53,579 --> 01:07:49,119
other evidence that i would be remiss I

1352
01:07:55,530 --> 01:07:53,589
didn't address is that of this abduction

1353
01:07:57,030 --> 01:07:55,540
and rape of these two girls

1354
01:08:00,840 --> 01:07:57,040
going to hold off on reading any of

1355
01:08:04,380 --> 01:08:00,850
these excerpt success let guy if we

1356
01:08:06,750 --> 01:08:04,390
don't mind let me just because we've

1357
01:08:08,430 --> 01:08:06,760
only got about ten minutes left let me

1358
01:08:10,290 --> 01:08:08,440
just wrap something up real quick and

1359
01:08:12,750 --> 01:08:10,300
then I do want you to address that

1360
01:08:17,190 --> 01:08:12,760
evidence and in what you have there

1361
01:08:20,970 --> 01:08:17,200
before we close out the show just what

1362
01:08:24,450 --> 01:08:20,980
ended up happening was Jean Hart was

1363
01:08:26,849 --> 01:08:24,460
eventually captured by the OSBI and he

1364
01:08:32,010 --> 01:08:26,859
was found in the cooks and Hills deep in

1365
01:08:35,700 --> 01:08:32,020
the woods at the cabin of his so-called

1366
01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:35,710
medicine man or elder named Sam pigeon

1367
01:08:42,630 --> 01:08:38,890
there Ken yeah and so he was caught

1368
01:08:45,270 --> 01:08:42,640
there brought in when he was caught he

1369
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:45,280
was found to he was found to have been

1370
01:08:52,140 --> 01:08:48,730
wearing women's glasses and those

1371
01:08:54,210 --> 01:08:52,150
glasses were also matched to the crime

1372
01:08:57,450 --> 01:08:54,220
scene they were stolen the night of the

1373
01:09:00,059 --> 01:08:57,460
murders out of one of the tents and he

1374
01:09:02,430 --> 01:09:00,069
came out of the the cabin wearing those

1375
01:09:06,780 --> 01:09:02,440
glasses and was taken into custody in

1376
01:09:11,280 --> 01:09:06,790
those glasses ultimately he was tried

1377
01:09:13,740 --> 01:09:11,290
and although there was this evidences

1378
01:09:16,559 --> 01:09:13,750
were going to lay out for you again that

1379
01:09:19,370 --> 01:09:16,569
basically had him dead to rights tied

1380
01:09:24,750 --> 01:09:19,380
the cave directly to the crime scene

1381
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:24,760
tied to and the cave tied to the suspect

1382
01:09:36,180 --> 01:09:33,780
acquitted him and some people were in

1383
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:36,190
shock and other people were overjoyed

1384
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:38,770
because they're you know football hero

1385
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:43,210
had been exonerated now of course he had

1386
01:09:49,380 --> 01:09:47,530
to return to prison because as Arthur

1387
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:49,390
said I think he was serving about a

1388
01:09:54,540 --> 01:09:51,850
hundred and forty-four years for the

1389
01:09:59,010 --> 01:09:54,550
brutal kidnapping and rape of two

1390
01:10:02,850 --> 01:09:59,020
teenage pregnant girls in Tulsa he was

1391
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:02,860
an escaped convict on these charges when

1392
01:10:08,790 --> 01:10:05,530
these Girl Scout murders were committed

1393
01:10:12,359 --> 01:10:08,800
same type of crime exactly

1394
01:10:15,899 --> 01:10:12,369
and anyhow he was acquitted sent back to

1395
01:10:18,589 --> 01:10:15,909
prison in just about a month later he

1396
01:10:22,339 --> 01:10:18,599
was jogging around the prison yard and

1397
01:10:25,580 --> 01:10:22,349
inexplicably collapsed and died an

1398
01:10:29,189 --> 01:10:25,590
autopsy was performed and they were

1399
01:10:32,010 --> 01:10:29,199
unable to come up with any reason why

1400
01:10:36,030 --> 01:10:32,020
his heart simply stopped and I believe

1401
01:10:37,919 --> 01:10:36,040
gene heart at the time according to the

1402
01:10:40,770 --> 01:10:37,929
autopsy was a perfect physical specimen

1403
01:10:45,540 --> 01:10:40,780
and I believe he was about 27 years old

1404
01:10:49,799 --> 01:10:45,550
and he was there physically human

1405
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:49,809
physical individual yes so he just

1406
01:10:55,589 --> 01:10:52,570
leaves a massive looking man and so I go

1407
01:10:58,620 --> 01:10:55,599
back to the medicine man's power and hmm

1408
01:11:01,129 --> 01:10:58,630
maybe he misused it and maybe he paid

1409
01:11:04,470 --> 01:11:01,139
the ultimate price even though he wasn't

1410
01:11:07,649 --> 01:11:04,480
convicted he ended up paying for those

1411
01:11:09,990 --> 01:11:07,659
crimes anyway but Arthur before we close

1412
01:11:13,830 --> 01:11:10,000
out we have about seven minutes to go

1413
01:11:17,549 --> 01:11:13,840
could you just review some of the very

1414
01:11:20,069 --> 01:11:17,559
strongest evidence on that the bureau

1415
01:11:22,620 --> 01:11:20,079
was able to collect well I will just

1416
01:11:25,620 --> 01:11:22,630
kind of summarize it and add to what

1417
01:11:27,839 --> 01:11:25,630
we've not yet discussed a lot I and my

1418
01:11:29,069 --> 01:11:27,849
memory is that and again I'm not saying

1419
01:11:31,709 --> 01:11:29,079
that it might not have been an

1420
01:11:34,890 --> 01:11:31,719
intervention but my memory is that he

1421
01:11:36,359 --> 01:11:34,900
had a heart failure and it had prior

1422
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:36,369
heart attacks I think it's what the

1423
01:11:41,100 --> 01:11:39,010
autopsy revealed but there's no lab

1424
01:11:43,770 --> 01:11:41,110
prism that I'm fond of it says it's

1425
01:11:46,859 --> 01:11:43,780
immoral to suspect someone when you

1426
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:46,869
assure their guilt and I've never minced

1427
01:11:52,410 --> 01:11:50,050
words about my belief that he was guilty

1428
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:52,420
of his difference in legal guilt and

1429
01:11:58,290 --> 01:11:55,690
moral guilt and my reference to the

1430
01:12:01,950 --> 01:11:58,300
other homicide is that I believe that

1431
01:12:05,189 --> 01:12:01,960
the case against heart was stronger than

1432
01:12:09,149 --> 01:12:05,199
the case against Stafford staffers been

1433
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:09,159
executed since and we had a witness his

1434
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:12,250
wife testified against him but uh to

1435
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:15,489
summarize this well Ella me back up well

1436
01:12:21,330 --> 01:12:18,130
let me summarize that we got the the

1437
01:12:22,620 --> 01:12:21,340
cave is connected to the crime scene

1438
01:12:24,810 --> 01:12:22,630
without doubt but

1439
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:24,820
of the tape and the leading edge

1440
01:12:28,860 --> 01:12:26,770
matching the tape on the flashlight at

1441
01:12:31,860 --> 01:12:28,870
the crime scene and the same type of

1442
01:12:34,740 --> 01:12:31,870
plastic that was there the newspaper

1443
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:34,750
being the same date April the 17th it

1444
01:12:39,540 --> 01:12:37,210
was used as toilet paper at the cave

1445
01:12:42,689 --> 01:12:39,550
site that same portions of that

1446
01:12:45,419 --> 01:12:42,699
newspaper was used to help the battery

1447
01:12:48,419 --> 01:12:45,429
make contact the photos the photographs

1448
01:12:52,470 --> 01:12:48,429
at the cryptic at the cave which was a

1449
01:12:56,610 --> 01:12:52,480
childhood favorite a place where heart

1450
01:13:00,060 --> 01:12:56,620
would go we know was developed by him

1451
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:00,070
those photographs and we know through

1452
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:02,290
independent witnesses who testified at

1453
01:13:07,229 --> 01:13:04,210
the trial that he would always carry

1454
01:13:10,110 --> 01:13:07,239
them with him my belief once again is

1455
01:13:12,660 --> 01:13:10,120
the resemblance to his ex-wife we have

1456
01:13:16,379 --> 01:13:12,670
the mutated sperm and the girl's heart

1457
01:13:20,610 --> 01:13:16,389
sperm was mutated in part I suppose by

1458
01:13:22,970 --> 01:13:20,620
virtue of the botched vasectomy and then

1459
01:13:26,129 --> 01:13:22,980
the prior crime that we've not addressed

1460
01:13:27,959 --> 01:13:26,139
extensively but to synopsize that the

1461
01:13:30,180 --> 01:13:27,969
two girls to him you'd referred were

1462
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:30,190
abducted they were tied up they would

1463
01:13:35,550 --> 01:13:33,010
put in the trunk and in reading it would

1464
01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:35,560
be comical if it wasn't so sad but in

1465
01:13:39,300 --> 01:13:37,570
reading this he would talk about they

1466
01:13:43,020 --> 01:13:39,310
didn't object they went along with it

1467
01:13:45,209 --> 01:13:43,030
well he he gagged tied to put duct tape

1468
01:13:47,970 --> 01:13:45,219
on their face and he tied them up with

1469
01:13:53,220 --> 01:13:47,980
one quarter inch I don't know this nylon

1470
01:13:56,729 --> 01:13:53,230
or court cotton I think nylon rope and I

1471
01:13:59,550 --> 01:13:56,739
photographed those and the knots are the

1472
01:14:02,220 --> 01:13:59,560
exact knots it's the same size core the

1473
01:14:04,379 --> 01:14:02,230
same size not and the same type of knot

1474
01:14:07,229 --> 01:14:04,389
so that the girls at the girls counts

1475
01:14:10,310 --> 01:14:07,239
were tied up with and this man has never

1476
01:14:13,620 --> 01:14:10,320
I beg your pardon in the same manner

1477
01:14:15,689 --> 01:14:13,630
yeah you got it exactly exactly in the

1478
01:14:18,270 --> 01:14:15,699
same manner thank you very much tied in

1479
01:14:21,390 --> 01:14:18,280
the same manner with the same size it's

1480
01:14:24,149 --> 01:14:21,400
the same MO period and so here he had

1481
01:14:26,490 --> 01:14:24,159
abducted Rhett tied up and raped these

1482
01:14:28,620 --> 01:14:26,500
two women left him for dead because he

1483
01:14:30,780 --> 01:14:28,630
left him tied up in a creek that had it

1484
01:14:34,669 --> 01:14:30,790
rain they could have drowned because of

1485
01:14:36,930 --> 01:14:34,679
suffocated I think he put a gag them and

1486
01:14:39,660 --> 01:14:36,940
so again the

1487
01:14:43,830 --> 01:14:39,670
evidence i just think was overwhelming

1488
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:43,840
now in fairness to the jury and i bought

1489
01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:46,570
for many years I felt the jury had

1490
01:14:54,930 --> 01:14:51,130
succumbed to the bias and they were home

1491
01:14:57,390 --> 01:14:54,940
town local football star and all that

1492
01:15:00,360 --> 01:14:57,400
but I really don't fault the the judge

1493
01:15:05,100 --> 01:15:00,370
at all did a masterful job I think or

1494
01:15:07,890 --> 01:15:05,110
the jury or Garvin Isaacs uh who was the

1495
01:15:10,500 --> 01:15:07,900
defense attorney exactly and he did a

1496
01:15:13,200 --> 01:15:10,510
stellar job I have to grudgingly say

1497
01:15:16,500 --> 01:15:13,210
because we're only on the side of it but

1498
01:15:18,540 --> 01:15:16,510
you know as a young man you young OSBI

1499
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:18,550
agent i viewed defense attorneys backed

1500
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:20,410
in is the enemy if you will they're not

1501
01:15:25,170 --> 01:15:22,690
defense attorneys job is to force the

1502
01:15:26,910 --> 01:15:25,180
state to meet the burden of proof and we

1503
01:15:29,850 --> 01:15:26,920
have to give credit where credit is due

1504
01:15:31,890 --> 01:15:29,860
because Garvin isaacs did a very good if

1505
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:31,900
not masterful job of doing that and

1506
01:15:37,950 --> 01:15:34,810
really where the jury is concerned we as

1507
01:15:40,170 --> 01:15:37,960
agents were sure of hearts guilt but we

1508
01:15:42,870 --> 01:15:40,180
were armed with the knowledge not

1509
01:15:45,090 --> 01:15:42,880
available to the jury we knew about the

1510
01:15:47,130 --> 01:15:45,100
kidnapping rape and leaving four dead of

1511
01:15:51,180 --> 01:15:47,140
these two women tied up with the same

1512
01:15:53,040 --> 01:15:51,190
chords same manner same MO exactly is

1513
01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:53,050
the same not used to tie up the Girl

1514
01:15:59,340 --> 01:15:55,930
Scouts but the judge disallowed that

1515
01:16:03,209 --> 01:15:59,350
testimony because uh it's prejudicial

1516
01:16:06,380 --> 01:16:03,219
effect outweighs its probative values

1517
01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:06,390
and you know it seems like today you

1518
01:16:13,439 --> 01:16:09,610
could say you know that you could they

1519
01:16:18,240 --> 01:16:13,449
would allow it because it is represents

1520
01:16:21,570 --> 01:16:18,250
a similar mo well you need and we argued

1521
01:16:24,270 --> 01:16:21,580
that as the common scheme and design and

1522
01:16:26,910 --> 01:16:24,280
the mo would be the same but it was it

1523
01:16:30,090 --> 01:16:26,920
again the judge ruled that it was that

1524
01:16:32,610 --> 01:16:30,100
that value is the judge recognized and

1525
01:16:35,040 --> 01:16:32,620
have that value but it did not outweigh

1526
01:16:37,170 --> 01:16:35,050
the prejudicial effect because as you

1527
01:16:41,970 --> 01:16:37,180
know you can't introduce evidence of a

1528
01:16:44,360 --> 01:16:41,980
prior crime to a jury at that stage if

1529
01:16:46,950 --> 01:16:44,370
it had been convicted and to enhance the

1530
01:16:49,830 --> 01:16:46,960
punishment you can do that but there's

1531
01:16:52,710 --> 01:16:49,840
no way had the judge done that

1532
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:52,720
had had the jury known about this prior

1533
01:16:57,960 --> 01:16:55,210
act exactly the same MO with the knots

1534
01:17:00,600 --> 01:16:57,970
and and the cord leaving them for dead

1535
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:00,610
they may have convicted him but I

1536
01:17:04,500 --> 01:17:02,410
there's no doubt in my mind it would

1537
01:17:07,680 --> 01:17:04,510
have been reversed by the Oklahoma Court

1538
01:17:09,690 --> 01:17:07,690
of Criminal Appeals because based on

1539
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:09,700
judicial error I don't think there's a

1540
01:17:14,700 --> 01:17:12,010
way in the world that He they would have

1541
01:17:17,790 --> 01:17:14,710
he could have allowed it in exactly and

1542
01:17:22,290 --> 01:17:17,800
and so you know it's just one of these

1543
01:17:25,590 --> 01:17:22,300
things it was an anomaly and you get

1544
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:25,600
into burden of proof that's not a fixed

1545
01:17:30,510 --> 01:17:27,730
thing you can paint green and define

1546
01:17:32,940 --> 01:17:30,520
well the burden of proof i think is like

1547
01:17:36,270 --> 01:17:32,950
snowflakes there's never been to juror

1548
01:17:39,510 --> 01:17:36,280
that juries apply it exactly in the same

1549
01:17:41,190 --> 01:17:39,520
manner not one of 12 jurors would kind

1550
01:17:44,310 --> 01:17:41,200
of have the same opinions and he's put

1551
01:17:48,330 --> 01:17:44,320
all 12 together the burden of proof is

1552
01:17:51,090 --> 01:17:48,340
very fluid and I do believe that the

1553
01:17:55,050 --> 01:17:51,100
jury placed an unreasonably high burden

1554
01:17:59,040 --> 01:17:55,060
on the state of Oklahoma in this case I

1555
01:18:01,860 --> 01:17:59,050
would like to have the state ask for a

1556
01:18:04,830 --> 01:18:01,870
change of venue all right fire strong

1557
01:18:06,660 --> 01:18:04,840
you know and I know that was impossible

1558
01:18:08,700 --> 01:18:06,670
because law enforcement can't ask you to

1559
01:18:11,610 --> 01:18:08,710
change man you only the defendant can

1560
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:11,620
well that I was ever going to happen but

1561
01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:13,330
you know what the music is rolling I'm

1562
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:15,850
sorry run out of time thank you so much

1563
01:18:20,430 --> 01:18:17,890
again I want to acknowledge the three

1564
01:18:22,890 --> 01:18:20,440
little girls today smil Milner Lori

1565
01:18:25,620 --> 01:18:22,900
farmer and Michelle if you say God bless

1566
01:18:27,510 --> 01:18:25,630
their hearts and their families who

1567
01:18:29,970 --> 01:18:27,520
missed them to this day I want to thank

1568
01:18:32,280 --> 01:18:29,980
Mike and dick Wilkerson for their help

1569
01:18:34,650 --> 01:18:32,290
and putting this show together and for

1570
01:18:36,030 --> 01:18:34,660
memorializing this amazing story in

1571
01:18:37,620 --> 01:18:36,040
their book someone cried for the

1572
01:18:40,830 --> 01:18:37,630
children which is going to be rereleased

1573
01:18:43,110 --> 01:18:40,840
don't forget replay six o'clock eastern